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  •  No, you're dismissing reality (1+ / 0-)
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    jec

    The police regularly kill people and we have the largest prison population on the planet. That's a police state.

    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

    by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:11:36 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  no a police state (0+ / 0-)

      is china where you can't even access facebook sometimes least you see something 'subversive' or where people that question the government either disappear or are put in indefinite house arrest.

      Your definition of 'police state' is not the common one and frankly I think it useless.

      Our prison population is the result of the 'war on drugs' a war that thankfully is winding down now and as a result we should finally have less of a prison population.

      And as to the police, well we are never going to agree on your myopic view on the police so let's leave it there.

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:40:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As I pointed out (0+ / 0-)

        The one freedomwe happen to have the most of is also the only thing that matters to some people when defining the police state. And people in China are not disapeared for criticizing the government. Generally speaking they are censored on social networks when they talk about organizing against the government, but just criticizing the government is fine. And most people who are actually jailed for dissent are jailed on trumped up charges, like Ai Wei Wei. The point being that your simplistic version of a police state isn't even true in the example you give.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:52:42 AM PDT

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        •  really? (0+ / 0-)

          http://www.nytimes.com/...

          I'll take your apology at any time

          In the time that I have been given,
          I am what I am

          by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:03:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I apologize (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban

            At the same time, the primary method they use isn't disappearances, it's trumped up charges, and these disappearances are a newish thing, but China has been a police state for most, if not all, of it's modern existence.

            I haven't really seen a definition of police state here from either side. You also haven't said anything about the racist justice system and why that makes us not a police state. I don't see the rule of law, for as much as we still have that here, as being antithetical to a police state. What makes a country a police state?

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:16:33 PM PDT

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            •  fair enough (0+ / 0-)

              a police state to me is like China, it's a state where the government openly and easily not only monitors everything you do but censors it. A police state doesn't allow for dissent they either disappear you or arrests you on bullshit charges.

              Racism is not really part of a police state not inherently, true it can be part of it. After all racism and xenophobia are very useful in getting the populace to agree to your demands.

              The very fact we can have this discussion and no one is going to show up at your doorstep to talk about your 'attitude' is proof that this isn't a police state.

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:33:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  People have these sorts of discussions in China (0+ / 0-)

                They are censored once they start talking about organizing or once they actually organize. You'll note that in the article you linked to. The US does have a history of targetting organizers, although now they've managed to do it without actually arresting people. But, again, you seem to be focussing primarily on free speech as being the important aspect of a police state. Why do the other amendments not have equal weight? Free speech doesn't mean much when it doesn't cange anything.

                If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:52:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  where do they? (0+ / 0-)

                  not on the internet that's for sure, in public places? Again not there

                  No police state can stop all discussion but they can and do find almost all of them eventually.

                  As to your comment about organizations, of course they are  investigated. You can be outraged by that if you want, I would argue that the government is doing it's due diligence to make sure said groups are not planning something violent.

                  Has that always happened? No the reaction to the flower child/hippie movement was overblown and in some places certainly fascist to some extent. But you don't get to cherry pick here, thousands of organizations have been duely investigated over even the last 100 years and most of them are then left alone.

                  And yes I concentrate on free speech because it's the easiest way to identify a police state but if you would like to talk about another amendment sure. Which one?  

                  In the time that I have been given,
                  I am what I am

                  by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:36:47 PM PDT

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                  •  maybe the 4th? (0+ / 0-)

                    How about the eighth? Or the tenth.

                    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                    by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:01:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

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