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  •  Ben Franklin has to be left out: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PSzymeczek, Victor Ward

    The point he made wasn't about privacy, but liberty. There's a real difference: in his time, the issue was representation in parliament, and even voting was not done by secret ballot.

    Or in a modern analogy, it's the difference between someone in the USG  knowing you access the New York Times website, and China blocking access to the NYT.

    "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

    by Inland on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:23:02 AM PDT

    •  Privacy IS a part of liberty (20+ / 0-)

      It's freedom FROM having noses (and other things) poked into everyone else's business.

      If you don't think freedom FROM is every bit as important as freedom TO, what are you doing on htis site?

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:28:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How can you have liberty (12+ / 0-)

      if you have no privacy from government snooping?

      And are you comfortable with the next Republican president using these powers?

      To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

      by Indiana Bob on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:30:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It seems to have worked out okay so far, right? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rhauenstein

        Every year I send the government my name, address, ss number, the amount of money I made, who I paid more than $600 to.  It knows the square footage of my house.  It knows the names and social security numbers of my children.  The government has my fingerprints.  It has my face from my passport.  It has a record of my overseas travel.  It knows my political contributions.  It knows I don't own a gun.

        And that's just what it collects without even trying hard.

        When am I supposed to get scared shitless?  1950?

        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

        by Inland on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:52:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What is working out okay so far??? (0+ / 0-)

          Last I checked, the rich are still getting richer, the rest are getting poorer, and all the 'serious people' agree that Social Security and the like need to get cut to pay for our wars, tax cuts, and bailouts.

          There are people who have risked everything to tell us what the government was doing.

          And Obama and Holder have done their best to smash them.

          And here you are, smug and content, spreading this message.

          Damn, dude.
          ~

    •  What good is free speech (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pgm 01, skyounkin, atana, lenzy1000, rbird

      if I can't use it for fear of being fired?

      What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

      by happymisanthropy on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 10:35:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can't answer that for you. (0+ / 0-)

        I have no idea why you brought it up, either.

        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

        by Inland on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:44:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  or indefinitely detained (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lenzy1000, rbird

        and declared an enemy of the state cause you gave money to wikileaks or Bradly Manning defense fund and participated in a Keystone pipe line demonstration. The definition of what's a terrorist or a terrorist aider and abettor is among other things a secret. The laws, courts security agencies all are State Secrets. It's a military police state where in were all pre-criminals who should be tracked and filed. Stands our whole democratic system on it's head and takes away all the protection people have from the real terrorists and war criminals, NSA, The Spooks, der Homeland Security and the neocon asshole pols who pass shit like The Patriot Act and call it legal.      

    •  The court disagrees with you (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fuzzyguy, Dallasdoc, rbird

      about privacy. It is a liberty and it's protected by the constitution. Roe v. Wade was decided on those grounds.

      And this is about more than just them knowing what sites you read. They're storing vast reams of data about us so they can go back and access it if they deem it necessary. Given that part of the character attack on Snowden included something he wrote about his ex 7 or 8 years ago I think it should be clear why this might be a problem. That people don't get this is amazing.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:32:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, it doesn't, illustrating my point again. (0+ / 0-)

        The "right of privacy" found by the courts is actually a right of personal autonomy, not secrecy.  You have a constitutional right to decide what medical procedures to have, for example.  You have a constitutional right to raise your children the way you see fit.  But a constitutional right to secrecy, that nobody has any ability to know?  No.  That's the difference between liberty and privacy.

        "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

        by Inland on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:42:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Privacy is not secrecy (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          happymisanthropy, Dallasdoc

          You've shifted the terms, conveniently. Just keep moving the goal posts.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:56:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So what's the difference? (0+ / 0-)

            You tell me.  

            "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

            by Inland on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:26:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  So, there's no problem, (0+ / 0-)

          legal or otherwise, with the government collecting, storing, archiving, analyzing, and datamining any and all information it can obtain about anyone, at any time, for any reason or for no reason?  That's the logical conclusion of your argument, and it would be absolutely hilarious to the authors of the Fourth Amendment.

          "A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison

          by gharlane on Mon Jun 24, 2013 at 02:51:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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