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View Diary: The Despair of a Democrat (570 comments)

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  •  Democrats have lost the moral high ground. (69+ / 0-)

    I suspect the only way to reclaim it, at this point, would be a thorough house-cleaning of the party. And by that I mean primary challenges against any Democratic politician who opposes the civil liberties guaranteed to all Americans in the Constitution. That means the vast majority of the politicians in our party. The party must literally be turned upside down by the American people, if it is to survive as a meaningful alternative to conservatism and authoritarianism.

    The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

    by Eric Stetson on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:06:42 PM PDT

    •  Really climate is (44+ / 0-)

      the most important issue for me.  People are barely aware of the seriousness of what we're facing.  But if we can't have consensus on an issue as obvious as this NSA stuff, what hope is there in responding to the total economic and agricultural meltdown coming with the energy, water, and climate crisis.  Might as well just sit and watch the world end.

      •  Climate, jobs, privacy, you name it. Dem leaders (46+ / 0-)

        in elected office are not standing up for core values of an enlightened civilization. Instead, most of them represent the more "polite" and "sane" version of conservative policy.

        When will rank-and-file Democrats say enough is enough and start running candidates for office who stand for real, serious change?

        The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

        by Eric Stetson on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:18:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  no. you are dead wrong. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban, science nerd, Upper West, Lucy2009

        i work with environonmental groups.
        i am friends with passionate die hard e people who work hard and donate more to causes about climate change and extinction of species.
        they are not screaming with despair about this whole thing - because they are busy doing other things.
        as am I.
         i know also know enough people who do believe in Climate Change, and are concerned, but don't care about this.

        and you don't need people to care about this "issue" that is consuming a blog called Daily Kos,  in order for them to care about the environment.
          that is what is filling you with despair and hopelessness?

        it's horrific is how how the BO administration just declassified wolves to be hunted to extinction again.
        and not even a peep on the front page or in diary from people who write hundreds of diaries a day. (yeah, i don't do diaries. sue me. )
        nope, just outrage after outrage after outrage about the same issue over and over and over and over.
         no wonder readership is so down here. no wonder.

        We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

        by Christin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:37:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  and yet, they are not filled with hopeless (0+ / 0-)

            despair.
            maybe i should send them here to really make them understand how hopeless it all is.

            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

            by Christin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:40:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good to know that you're so superior to the rest (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jeopardydd

              of the silly peons that face reality rather than sticking their heads in the sand.  

              One can feel hopeless for a period of time and still be fighting.  Perhaps you're someone who can do only one thing at a time.  Most of the rest of us managed to express our discouragement, our despair, our fear, even while continuing to fight.  

              Of course, though, you have chosen the only honorable and important issue and thereby proved your superiority over us already, so I'm sure we'll all soon recognize that we're just silly, vapid creatures that don't have your strength of character that enables you to focus on just one issue and not be sidetracked by reality.

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:26:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The problem with environmental groups (16+ / 0-)

          and believe me they are about the only progressives who ever knock on my door so I do give you credit for effort, but you have to link your issues with a broader agenda because your issues standing alone can't build a large enough progressive coalition for a reform movement.  So I wish you'd join with others of us who are concerned about civil liberties, social justice, financial regulation, etc. so we could accumulate some real numbers.

          •  until the food starts running out. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlueDragon, Big River Bandido

            kind of blows my mind that people can be that stupid.

            that said, I'll join with just about anybody, I'm usually working on those other issues too.

            Defending the theft of our freedom by the government is not a legitimate difference of opinion on a political matter -- it is a deeply un-American attitude that deserves nothing but scorn and derision.--Dallasdoc

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:17:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  what is the one issue causing all that outrage? (7+ / 0-)
          just outrage after outrage after outrage about the same issue over and over and over and over.

          "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

          by allenjo on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:11:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm willing to bet (32+ / 0-)

          that all your die hard people are white, upper income, and well educated. Doubt you got any out of work black welders or latino maids. Guess why? Right...because poor people give a shit about the environment within their four walls, if they have them, first and foremost.

          And we've got an ever expanding list of poor people in this country. Hard to get worked up over an extinct turtle when your kids' shoes have holes in them.

          •  The man has a point (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lehman scott, Nada Lemming, maryabein

            It is hard to worry about (a) when you're worrying about (b).

            The symbol for the Republican party shouldn't be an elephant -- it should be a unicorn.

            by Deadicated Marxist on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:41:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Around my way, (16+ / 0-)

              you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who gives a rats ass about anything that isn't about food on the on the table, rent, and a warm coat. I go talking to these folks about a bird in Katmandu and they look at me like I'm completely clueless. Because I would be. So I don't. Because I'm not.

              Consequentially, we don't get a lot of door to door environmental activists over here. But I see them all the time on the Upper West Side. Good for them.

              •  Spotted owls (4+ / 0-)

                isn't really what the climate change issue is about.  The climate change issue is about economic collapse brought only drought, etc.  When coupled with the coming energy crisis and scarcity of water, we're looking at a pretty ugly future.  80s environmentalists did a lot of damage portraying this issue primarily as one of the extinction of rare species (not that that's unimportant).

              •  Come with it (6+ / 0-)

                You know it, my friend.  I live in those places where the environmental activists come around.  Had one hear just last week!  

                But just 9 miles away, my work brings me face to face with the poorest residents of our 3rd largest city on daily basis.  And it ain't for their signature on a petition.  Just trying to get them out of a criminal justice system that's sucked them in practically since birth.  Yeah they don't know much about Katmandu birds (neither do I), but they know people, and they bleed red.  But something tells me they know spying is kinda wrong (unless you're already a target).

                The symbol for the Republican party shouldn't be an elephant -- it should be a unicorn.

                by Deadicated Marxist on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:07:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  In my hood everyone recycles because that is (7+ / 0-)

                how many survive. I've got neighbors with bags & bags filled ready to go to make some bucks. Would they be happy working in a paid green job, hell yes. Would they vote for it, hell yes.

                On the other hand, no one here gives a rat's ass about any "terrorist" threat. The people living in caves around here are the homeless 1 block away living under the overpass & in the bushes of vacant lots.

                Ask folks here how much of their own income should go to collecting information on them to "keep them safe" from foreign terrorism.

                The only war on terrorism that matters around here is the war on the terrorism of joblessness.

                The Americas greatest political dynasty...the Kaan

                by catilinus on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:45:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  keep posting this ignorance. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lehman scott

                and excusing it.
                and then mocking those on the upper west side.
                your ignorance on this is uttelry appalling.
                hardly anyone gives a rats butt about the planet.
                it's why it's dying. it's why more people will starve, and suffer, and go without.
                because so few care.
                because so few want to hear about  it.
                but you keep babbling your garbage about us upper elitists white folk on the upper west side who only care about turtles.

                We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                by Christin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:50:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think your missing the point (8+ / 0-)

                  Why care about the environment in the unknown future when your just trying to make it out alive today. If you've missed food for days or can only afford a couple bucks each day, then you'd understand.

                  It only takes a little empathy to reach the desperate or the disconnected.

                  •  Yup, if we starve to death today, what difference (6+ / 0-)

                    does sea level rise in 30 years make?  

                    People have to have their essential survival needs met first, before they can move on to anything else.

                    People who worry about what to eat are at the bottom of the scale. Those at the top of the triangle who aren't trying to help those at the bottom along with their work on the environment likely won't make as much progress as if their horizons were broadened.  

                    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                    by YucatanMan on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:31:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually, this whole argument falls apart (3+ / 0-)

                      when you look beyond our borders. A lot of very poor people in other countries are environmentalists or climate activists, because they understand where their food comes from. We in this country, rich and poor, don't. We think it comes from the grocery store. So we don't link the natural world to our survival. More fools we.

                      Defending the theft of our freedom by the government is not a legitimate difference of opinion on a political matter -- it is a deeply un-American attitude that deserves nothing but scorn and derision.--Dallasdoc

                      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:21:01 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I can tell you this (2+ / 0-)

                        Maslow was spot on. Working as a nurse, I need cooperation from the patient and their family or caretakers. You simply cannot heal a person without ensuring their basic needs are met!

                        In the last place I worked, a burn center, this was heavily emphasized because if it wasn't, tons of people would come back with infected wounds, heavy scarring, graft failure, and loss of range of movement. Even with this emphasis, and we had nurses, PT, OT, Recreational Therapists, Social Workers, Gov Aid Programs, and some of the best most humane doctors, PAs, and NPs you could ever meet, if e patient couldn't meet their basic needs, it all fell apart when they left the hospital.

                        I do appreciate your insight about the grocery store, hell, when I lived in FL, they sold California oranges at the grocery store, that's how disconnected from reality our supermarkets are.

                •  Heh, look, it's someone not helping! (0+ / 0-)

                  I wonder how many Humvee's worth of harm Christin does to the Environmental cause around here.

                  It would be nice if we could actually measure the damage these insulting venomous jackasses do to their cause with their refusal to do anything other than insult and deride.

                  Measure it in Humvee's worth of damage.

                  That insult was .5 Humvee's worth of damage to the environment, well done!

                  "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                  by Rick Aucoin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:55:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  My shoes have holes in them. (8+ / 0-)

            So do my pants.  And I care about the environmental issues we face, despite having been unemployed and below the poverty line for the last three years.

            But yeah, I'm guilty of being white and well-educated.

          •  And there's been such exageration over the years. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Angryallen, dionys1

            Yes, our environment and taking care of it is an important issue, an existintial issue, as a matter of fact.

            But when people have been told their whole lives that any day now all of the cities are going to be underwater/there is going to be a new dustbowl in the midwest/that famine will kill hundreds of millions/that overpopulation will...

            Well, they start tuning it out, eventually.

            I'm 47 and I've been hearing all my life about the horrors about to be inflicted on us by Environmental Immenent Disaster ABC and XYZ.

            So pardon me if I don't set my hair on fire at the latest information saying that sea levels might rise as much as 5 feet in the next 50 to 500 years, and OMG we've got to do something now or it's the point of no return!

            Crying wolf over the environment for so long has simply robbed the issue of the importance it should have.

            And, well, what BBB said.  People just don't care too much about a possibly exaggerated threat to the Whopping Willow Whistler in a particular valley of Washington State when they are chewing their fingernails to the quick about next month's mortgage payment.

            How to address the environment?  

            *Connect it to other issues, such as jobs and the economy in a positive way.

            *Begin the decades long task of repairing the damage done to credibility by decades of exaggeration and hyperbole.

            *Never ever scold people again, work through positive actions only; everyone is damn tired of the nagging scolds.

            *If you can't accomplish it through positive action and reinforcement, keep working at it until you can.

            And most importantly, understand that this issue will always, always, take back seat to people's need to pay the mortgage, feed the kids, and provide for a reasonably comfortable standard of living for themselves.  Insisting that we all go back to some sort of fantasy hunter-gatherer civilization in order to protect the biosphere just makes people laugh even harder at your efforts.

            "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

            by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:04:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In my view, economy is at the (9+ / 0-)

              Root of all issues.  These changes, however, will have a massive impact on economy on economy in the next few decades.  Incidentally, your points are rhetoric capitalists use to make the climate issue sound silly.

              •  capitalists also use verbs in sentences. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Nada Lemming

                You know who else used verbs?

                Hitler.

                My point being that my explanation of why so many tune out environmental issues and activists has nothing to do with what capitalists or Hitler might also say and do

                Guilt by association, and not even a strong association, is also a losing tactic for actually doing your cause any good.

                "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:14:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You think you're offering insight (5+ / 0-)

                  and a good program for appealing to a wider audience. And sure enough, you make some valid points.

                  But everything you observe, from environmentalists "crying wolf" to people being "tired of nagging scolds" is a media creation. Media owned and controlled by people who see the envirnmental movement as the sworn enemy to their profits.

                  I'm sure you sound reasonable when you're hanging around your football buddies or whatever shallow, programmed, good German social group you belong to. Those environmentalists! When are they going to learn.

                  But you're full of shit. Nothing you perceive or prescribe has any relation to reality at all except the part about how environmentalists make you feel. You and your world view is just a product of too much TV. It's true that you are aware of some of the social dynamics of the media induced delusion you live in. And that even gives your perspective some value.

                  But it's still just a delusion. It's only real because years of mass propaganda have made it so.

                  In the real reality, we are in the midst of the Earth's 5th mass extinction event. Can you comprehend that? Ecological systems are collapsing all over the world. The oceans are dying. Climate change is redistributing rainfall so fast that species can't adapt.

                  This isn't a prediction. It is the present. It's scientifically, provably happening right now.

                  But, please, don't listen to me. Just pop another beer and bullshit yourself more so you can feel like you have a rare grasp on reality.

                  But beware vacation packages to scuba dive on coral reefs, visit glaciers, or fish in the Gulf of Mexico. And no frog gigging either.

                  •  Another excellent example... (0+ / 0-)

                    ... of how to not accomplish anything positive for your cause.

                    I know it sure is a lot easier to insult and deride, but it actually hurts your supposed cause.

                    Your entire post is almost a textbook example of what an activist should avoid saying if they actually want to do some good, change some minds, spread the word, help the environment.

                    We see this a lot around here.  Me I have to wonder at how much does get done that is positive considering how much drag on the Cause activists like this put out.

                    "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                    by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:59:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sorry man (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm just in a pissed off mood and drank too much coffee so railing on the ego guy with delusions of insight seemed like good sport. Nothing personal.

                      •  My ego? (0+ / 0-)

                        LoL

                        And I'm not taking y'alls insults and demeaning attitude personally.

                        I just hope someone sees how you and others here are giving a clinic in how to drive off otherwise sympathetic halfway-to-your-side fellow citizens and learns something from it.

                        Insult laden diatribes like y'alls probably do your supposed cause more harm than every humvee general motors ever made, but there just isn't any way to prove it to you enough for you to give up on your feel-good pastime of insulting people who aren't 100% in your camp.

                        Please do carry on, but wont you at least think about the poor polar bears?

                        "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                        by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 11:41:07 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  And what would have accomplished something (0+ / 0-)

                      with that poster?  A mind is made up - "I don't want to hear anything about the environment.  I've already heard too much.  The earth hasn't ended yet, so it never will."  Etc.  Sorry, but sometimes the rant is about the only way to respond.

                      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                      by gustynpip on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:31:59 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you can convince yourself of that. (0+ / 0-)

                        Hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to justify harming your cause by giving in to the feel-good exercise of insulting people.

                        The first thing I said up there was that the environment was an important issue,an existential issue.

                        I made positive suggestions on how one might help their cause even.

                        The 'only' answer to this sort of poster is derision and insult?

                        Sure,if your goal is to make activists appear to be childish jerks who care more about venting their spleen than in helping their cause.

                        "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                        by Rick Aucoin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:40:17 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Actually, it's not my cause. I don't need to (0+ / 0-)

                          convince myself of anything.  I simply saw the huge holes in your supposed argument, together with your over the top reaction to someone who reacted normally to those holes and commented on it.  I have no oar in this one and have disagreed with Crispin plenty.  I simply saw how silly your argument was and commented on it.  

                          You might think holding out this pretend hope that you'll join the activists or even begin agreeing with them if they're just really, really nice to you and treat you with the degree of respect your deep insights deserve will work.  It won't.  Nor would their treating you with the degree of respect your ego makes you think you deserve make you take the dangers more seriously.  Neither one is going to happen.

                          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                          by gustynpip on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:54:30 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Then carry on! (0+ / 0-)

                            You admit you have no interest in the subject at hand, so we're left with the conclusion you just stopped by to be a dick.

                            Okay, message received, have a great day, man.

                            "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                            by Rick Aucoin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:58:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  you have any more right wing talking points to (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              svboston, mrkvica

              spit and spew out?
              any more insults?
              any more koch brothers propaganda to repeat?

              at least you didn't mock al gore.
              at least you didn't say it's not man made.
              this garbage belongs on red state, period.
              or in a koch brothers commericial.

              right wing talking point;

              And there's been such exageration over the years. (0+ / 0-)
              Right wing talking point:
              But when people have been told their whole lives that any day now all of the cities are going to be underwater/there is going to be a new dustbowl in the midwest/that famine will kill hundreds of millions/that overpopulation will...
              Right Wing Talking babbling and gargbage:
              I'm 47 and I've been hearing all my life about the horrors about to be inflicted on us by Environmental Immenent Disaster ABC and XYZ.
              Right Wing Stupidity :
              So pardon me if I don't set my hair on fire at the latest information saying that sea levels might rise as much as 5 feet in the next 50 to 500 years,
              More Right Wing Stupidity:
              and OMG we've got to do something now or it's the point of no return!
              Yet More Right Wing Stupidity:
              Crying wolf over the environment for so long has simply robbed the issue of the importance it should have.
              Right Wing Mantra - who cares:
              And, well, what BBB said.  People just don't care too much
              Ugly Right Wing Sneers:
              about a possibly exaggerated threat to the Whopping Willow Whistler in a particular valley of Washington State when they are chewing their fingernails to the quick about next month's mortgage payment.
              So the planet is fine, the enviro people are liars and nuts and make up stories, we tell you to set your hair on fire, and no one should care until every last human has a job and money.
              Because really, who cares? It's all made up and people can't care about the planet and it's people.
              Only it's people can be cared for - that's the extent of your right wing babblign.

              Idiocy. Pure idiocy.
               

              We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

              by Christin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 07:01:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  See, thats it exactly. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                raboof, YucatanMan, Williston Barrett

                Well done in avoiding any chance of accomplishing something positive for your cause, instead choosing the exact opposite, yet easy and venting-satisfying, road that so many others chose.

                And you wonder why people so rarely take environmental issues seriously?  Christin is an excellent lesson in exactly why.

                What you have to decide is what is more important to you.  Chiding people, venting at them, deriding them, mocking them, or actually doing your supposed cause some good.

                All too often around here the choice is to mock and insult instead of actually helping their cause.

                So often that I wonder if all of the supposed activists for (insert cause here) are really here to help the cause or if some of them are here to make all activists seem stupid, counterproductive, shrill, assholes.

                "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 07:46:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Christin, I run a large (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrkvica, orestes1963, gustynpip, JosephK74

                and important environmental campaign in California to stop Governor Brown from building the peripheral tunnels that will suck all the water out of the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta -- to send to corporate agribusiness in the San Joaquin Valley.  We have thousands of members.  We educate, do lots of media work, hold events for thousands of people -- and have a movie on the film festival circuit.

                I have people from all political backgrounds on my board.  I have environmentalists, farmers, and even developers working on the effort.

                And the way to appeal to all these people is to tie the economy to environmental degradation.  That does not mean I support a consumer culture that further harms the environment.  It does mean that I have to connect for people on how a degraded environment will have a negative impact on their sustainability.

                "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

                by Going the Distance on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:48:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  In all fairness to Christin... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mrkvica, gustynpip, JosephK74

              your comments about environmental hyperbole are wrong.  We have more species facing extinction than ever before, epidemic rates of asthma due to climate change, polluted water throughout the country contributing to cancer rates, and there will be significant problems with public health and food production with climate change -- not just impacts  on coastal regions -- but droughts and floods of epic proportions.

              If you stop and reflect on these points, you can easily make the links between these environmental problems and the costs to our economy.  You response that it's either the environment or the economy is not a well thought out position.

              "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

              by Going the Distance on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:01:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well, tht isnt what i said. (0+ / 0-)

                Though its not surprising my words are misconstrued.

                 And it's the job of the activist to how those connections, that's the thing the activist should be doing.

                Look at the things I recommended.  Notice what's missing? Any suggestion that activists keep venting their spleen at people not already dedicated to their cause.   In fact, anything short of positive appeal and dedicated effort to rebuild the lost credibility of environmental activists will surely result in no gain for the cause.

                Calling people right-wingers and misconstuing their words is 180 degrees around from what the actual productive helpful activist does.

                But shrill scolding of people for... well, for anything, sure does feel better, and it's a DAMN sight easier than actually doing the hard disciplined work of helping the cause.

                "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:09:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are correct about Christin's scolding and if (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mrkvica

                  you look through the thread, I addressed that as well -- but I did not twist what you wrote.  You complained about environmental hyperbole for areas of concern that you have deemed not important.  And I am merely pointing out that when you take all these individual environmental issues and look at them in a broader context, what is happening is quite alarming for the environment and the economy.

                  Christin's comments had problems -- but your points were also not as well developed as they could have been.

                  "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

                  by Going the Distance on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:30:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm also not an activist in this area. (0+ / 0-)

                    Just a citizen, who was giving my view of what I've seen and, more to the point, my opinion on what other American's see and think about 'environmentalists'.

                    Unsurprisingly, the scolds and insulters came out immediately, and the suggestions I made ignored.

                    Unsurprising, because the work would be hard, and bitching at people is easy.  

                    Anyway, idont have an agenda on environmental issues, its not my top concern.   So I'm not putting together any plan for educating activists or changing the way they are harming their cause.  So its no surprise my post might not be exactly composed for maximum effect, is it.

                    But it doesn't surprise me at all when activists, seeing someone who isn't part of their cause and is just a semi-sympathetic liberal, immediately turn to insults and derision as their interaction mode of preference.

                    Man, the harm people do to their causes, simply because they can't resist unleashing their id and bitching at people. :-)

                    "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                    by Rick Aucoin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:39:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I always love it when those who don't take it (0+ / 0-)

                  upon themselves to advise those who do.  

                  "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                  by gustynpip on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:35:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Then carry on! (0+ / 0-)

                    You're doing a great job here of convincing anyone of your cause.  

                    So please do carry on, I'm quite positive there is no chance whatsoever that any suggestion or point of view I might have can help you.

                    "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the GOP again." - The Democratic Party

                    by Rick Aucoin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:44:12 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not my cause. Sorry to disappoint you. Then (0+ / 0-)

                      again, I'm also not giving the activists advice about how they SHOULD be doing things.  I pretty much figure that if I know how they SHOULD be doing things, I'd be duty bound to go out and do it myself.  

                      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                      by gustynpip on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:56:38 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  yeah. those planet caring clueless elitists (0+ / 0-)

            how dare they not agree with this blog.  and you! mr i work on wall street but oh i care!
            how dare those white upper income well educated people not agree that the NSA outrage - is an outrage.
            how dare they not know what pain and suffering are.

            therefore, daily kos must not write about stupid turtles.
            when someone is hungry and needs a job.
            and only when every single person has a job, can we care.

            i know you don't care about the turtles climate change.
            i will continue to care about the unemployed and the turtles.
            in the meantime, your ignorant sneering remarks about my kind, are garbage.

            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

            by Christin on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:47:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  see my point about the food running out (0+ / 0-)

            again, it's this cockeyed framing of the environmental movement that causes a lot of the problem.

            Defending the theft of our freedom by the government is not a legitimate difference of opinion on a political matter -- it is a deeply un-American attitude that deserves nothing but scorn and derision.--Dallasdoc

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:19:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's not hard for progressives to see clear links (0+ / 0-)

            between the environmental degradation we are causing and the socio-political-economic degradation of our society.  It's important to draw those links for the benefit of all of us who are tormented by the corruption of our politics.

            That working class people and racial "minorities" (an increasingly incorrect term) are more focused on their immediate circumstances is neither surprising, nor indicative that they don't care.  It's simply a natural consequence of living close to the edge.  

            Shirley Chisholm was right. Our Republic is in deep trouble.

            by Big River Bandido on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:18:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Actually Agathena has a really decent diary about (5+ / 0-)

          the declassification, complete with action link.

        •  The climate issue (4+ / 0-)

          Can't be adequately addressed with consumer activism, though I'm glad such groups exist.

      •  you are not alone (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrkvica

        Once we were few, but the number is growing.  Unfortunately, however, and as you note, it is probably too little too late.  il faut cultiver notre jardin may be all that is left.

        Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

        by Deward Hastings on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:57:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Cory Booker comes fits this perfectly: (34+ / 0-)
      And by that I mean primary challenges against any Democratic politician who opposes the civil liberties guaranteed to all Americans in the Constitution.
      If he wins the primary, it will be a disaster, just another republican with a D after their name.
    •  word. (9+ / 0-)
      Ultimately, the winners of this race to beef up security are defense contractors. The bill is already filled with plans to buy $1.5 billion of fencing, and spend several billion more to install ground radar systems and cameras, buy new helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft, and develop the capability to fly drones along the border literally 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. These measures are designed to provide real-time surveillance of the entire 1,950-mile (3,200 km) border, with contractors including Boeing, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics pitching the Department of Homeland Security about how they can play a lucrative role.

      “It’s huge, you can’t station enough people on the border,” New York senator Chuck Schumer said, explaining how new technology gives the government the ability to apprehend or turn back nine out of ten unauthorized border crossers. “With these drones, you can see every single person who crosses the border day or night, and you can follow their path, so they can be apprehended when they’re ten, twenty, twenty-five miles inland.”

      "It strikes me as gruesome and comical that in our culture we have an expectation that a man can always solve his problems" - Kurt Vonnegut

      by jazzence on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:27:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's a military fetish in this country. (30+ / 0-)

        Militarized police, militarized borders, militarized crime (a.k.a. "terror"), and the enormous and far over-reaching military itself.

        Until the U.S. gets over that particular psychological kink, we're unlikely to make much progress as a society.

        The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

        by Eric Stetson on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 04:32:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes! (6+ / 0-)

          Thank you for this comment.

          I have posted several comments lately about the linkage between the "war on terror" and the security/MIC.  Keeping the American public in a state of fear fuels the MIC.  In the end, no matter what the issue, it is all about transferring public monies to the private sector.  The easiest way to do that is through perpetual war and the fear of terrorism.  It has become the rabbit hole for dissolving our society.

          "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

          by gulfgal98 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:48:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But it wouldn't work (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Williston Barrett

            to keep us in a panic if we don't buy their bullshit.
            I don't.
            We have had 1 serious terrorist attack.
            ONE. The others have been set up by FBI patsies.
            Even the under wear bomber was a set up, imo.
            They got calls from many people and organizations.
            Enough red flags were there to see it.
            Onecway tickets, no luggage.
            Even CT theories can be true.
            What happens after every scare?  
            After the zuWB, Chertoff got the scanners in the airports.
            It is always Follow the Money.

            Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names?

            by snoopydawg on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 11:41:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  zuWB stands for (0+ / 0-)

              under wear bomber.
              We need an edit button for itouches and Ziggy fingers :)

              Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names?

              by snoopydawg on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 11:43:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  The Republicans are just going ape-shi# over (6+ / 0-)

          drones, radar, cameras and militarized Border Patrol to keep the brown people out.  Today they were just rabid in their demands for more and more hardware.

          I often feel like we're converting our nation into East Germany.

          There is a vibrant border-area culture and continual interchange of both people and wildlife that's being destroyed, just so stupid old white Republicans can brag about whose is biggest.  Stomping their feet. Waving their firearms around. It's insane.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:48:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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