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View Diary: My own personal two cents (624 comments)

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  •  and there it is (22+ / 0-)

    a discussion blooms. Yes, lets talk about boundaries for law enforcement, the NSA and anyone else with access to all the moving parts. We need to have experts brief the press corps, congress and everyone else who is ignorant to what is going on and then let them decide how much access we want to allow.  We are working backwards in all this because the politicians panicked right after 9/11 and passed the awful Patriot Act.

    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

    by jbou on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:07:33 AM PDT

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    •  Absolutely agree (16+ / 0-)

      The Patriot Act was a creation of panic.  Now what do we do to permit essential functions required when vast data sets exist and can provide critical information, while protecting rights?  

      Maybe...

      Warrants should be required for intercepting/reading individual communications.  For example, I email people in the Middle East, and work on issues related to violence - surely some of my communications will fit a pattern that could draw scrutiny. Am I hugely upset if this triggers a flag of some sort?  It depends on what happens next.  If there is probable cause and they get a warrant (far stricter than is the case now), then I am not so freaked out if they actually read individual emails.  I draw the line at reading my private emails without a warrant. If they use simple pattern analysis to put me on some sort of extra security list at the airport - well, that should require independent transparent oversight by someone other than DHS.  Does it need a warrant?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  We can discuss. What about using cell phone location information to track population movements in the event a particularly virulent and deadly form of influenza breaks out?  I think I might favor government access to that information under such a circumstance, even without a warrant.

      Generally, I favor walls between using megadata for fishing for suspects in criminal cases, such as developing a "profile" for the average meth dealer internet usage, and using that sort of profiling, in the absence of any hard information, to indiscriminately to obtain a warrant.  I agree that some incidentally acquired data, such as cell phone location information, should be accessible to both prosecution and defense in criminal cases. I favor independent oversight of use of megadata for any sort of security profiling or epidemiological research, but would not necessarily require an individual warrant.  I favor the strictest controls - probable cause and a judicial warrant - for the most intrusive invasions, such as reading someone's private correspondence. The problem will be enforcement, and the ease with which any graduated systems put in place to control access can be overruled or subverted.  That's what gives me the most concern.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:39:39 AM PDT

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    •  Yes, they did. (3+ / 0-)

      YES, we need to have a discussion of boundaries and implications and so forth. Unfortunately, too many people are not wanting to discuss anything, they are simply wanting to hear their own voices in the wind and hear that they are right no matter what.

      Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Same goes with cats. We have claws and teeth!

      by triciawyse on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:44:23 AM PDT

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      •  well (8+ / 0-)

        If you want to debate the issue then there needs to be a lot less about how Snowden is out to get Obama because he gave money to that troll libertarian from Texas and more about the ins and outs of how all of this goes down and what we actually know.

        Unfortunately, too many people are not wanting to discuss anything, they are simply wanting to hear their own voices in the wind and hear that they are right no matter what.
        Your diary is a prime example of this.

        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

        by jbou on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:48:51 AM PDT

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      •  The problem is that some folks (7+ / 0-)

        can't seem to admit it might be a bad thing for the NSA to track you. Add to that the people who are claiming that this isn't a new thing and, worst of all, that we've already had this discussion, and you can maybe see why some of us are so frustrated.

        Obviously there is going to be some disagreement about how much data is appropriate to collect, but we've got people who don't even want to discuss it and instead end the conversation with nonsense like saying the Constitution isn't a suicide pact, as if terrorism is a threat the size of the Civil War. The justifications that some people are giving are just outrageous and that's what's frustrating a lot of people.

        That and the fact that people who are fine with this are tending to make it about the president and then get angry when people talk about the president's role in it.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:55:15 AM PDT

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        •  The same ol' crap shoved in our faces (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, congenitalefty, CenPhx, mrkvica

          during the Bush years. The same crap that led a lot of us to vote for Obama in the 2008 primaries in the first place!

          And now some of his most ardent supporters, with complete historical myopia, are trotting out the same bullshit to try and shut down any debate over electronic surveillance.

          "As the madmen play on words, and make us all dance to their song / to the tune of starving millions, to make a better kind of gun..." -- Iron Maiden

          by Lost Left Coaster on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 12:42:26 PM PDT

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          •  The conversation that happened in 2006 (2+ / 0-)

            which was only about call records, not telephony metadata, was part of what led to the Dems taking back the legislature. Because they came out against this. I shudder to think what Romney or McCain would have done with this information. We still don't know what Bush did with it.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 12:48:21 PM PDT

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      •  Tremendously ironic comment (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jrooth, congenitalefty, CenPhx, jabney, mrkvica

        coming from the author of this diary.

        Unfortunately, too many people are not wanting to discuss anything, they are simply wanting to hear their own voices in the wind and hear that they are right no matter what.
        Your diary is an attempt at silencing this issue. By saying that there are other, more important issues, implying that people who care about this issue suddenly are not good allies on poverty, or LGBT equality, etc., you're trying to do your part to push this issue of electronic surveillance aside, more or less trying to shame those of us who are intent on focusing attention on this vital issue.

        And, of course, this discussion would never be happening without Snowden's leaks. So you, just like the president, disingenuously claim that you support this conversation while condemning the person who instigated it. All of this would have remained mostly out of view if no one like Snowden had come forward.

        "As the madmen play on words, and make us all dance to their song / to the tune of starving millions, to make a better kind of gun..." -- Iron Maiden

        by Lost Left Coaster on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 12:40:38 PM PDT

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