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  •  Its worth noting that (14+ / 0-)

    OPOL specifically apologized on this point exactly.

    I do agree though: comparisons to Nazi Germany only belittle the tragedy that was the Holocaust. Not to mention it does nothing to support your argument.

    UNINSTALLING MITT ROMNEY..... █████████████ 100%

    by saxoman1 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 04:32:20 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I tend to agree with Naomi Wolf (35+ / 0-)

      I don't have my copy in front of me to paraphrase her introduction to End of America,  if you are going to talk about modern fascism you are going to need to make references to the previous fascistic experiences in history.  If people get nervous about that fact it can't really be helped and shouldn't be worried about.

      Please note: That doesn't excuse allusions to the Holocaust.  But the political and social events of Germany circa 1930 are absolutely relatable to political and social events of modern America.  

      "If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people." -Tony Benn (-6.38,-6.36)

      by The Rational Hatter on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 05:02:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No. Not at all. (26+ / 0-)

        Someone with any real understanding of that period in history would not make that comparison.

        Weimar Germany isn't very comparable to the modern United States. By some measures, Weimar Germany never had an unemployment rate below 15%.  They had one of the worst periods of hyper-inflation ever recorded.  Social Liberals were badly outnumbered by people who took offense to changing social mores. Right-Wing and Left-Wing militias were often fighting it out in the streets. And this was a country that had only a decade or so of basically democratic governance.  

        Stop with the Nazi comparisons, folks. You only discredit yourself when you make them.

        •  That's all you got? That it's not exactly the same (13+ / 0-)

          economically? Anyone with a "real understanding of that period in history" would recognize that hyperinflation is not required to promote fascism or authoritarianisms. The United States in fact had many fascist sympathizers in the 1930s, and there was a plot by fascist-sympathizing industrialists to overthrow Franklin Roosevelt.

          Sorry about the redundancy (I noted this in the discussion below), but if you want history, read Hanna Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, which emphasizes the idea that most evils throughout history were not perpetrated by sociopaths or fanatics, but by ordinary people who accepted the premises of their state and therefore participated with the view that their own and the state's actions were normal.

          We're not talking about the Holocaust, we're talking about acceptance of an authoritarian state such as that promoted by regimes akin to Nazism. Not an exact comparison, but an analogy that highlights the slippery slope from passive acceptance of police state tactics to dissolution of democracy.

          The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil.
                                            -- Hannah Arendt

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:02:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not the same in basically any way. (5+ / 0-)

            Economics. Politics. Social Trends. To say nothing of technology.

            Do you really think that a country that is increasingly accepting of gay marriage, where watching porn is simply what people do, a country that favors more immigration, that is increasingly rejecting the Drug War, will move towards a fucking police state? You have got to be kidding me.

            •  Simple answer: Yes, I do. Historic parallels are (10+ / 0-)

              not exact comparisons, and I believe that a country could make progress in areas (despite the reluctance of the Establishment, including Barack Obama), including gay marriage, yet lose ground in other areas to authoritarians and xenophobes.

              And I would note, for what it's worth, that the Obama administration has deported more people than its predecessors, and continues to heavily promote the War on Drugs, which is a major contributor to the rise of the police state tactics. As most people who've looked at the USA PATRIOT Act know, since the Bush administration and into the Obama administration, the majority of times that law has been invoked was for drug-related cases, not terrorism.

              We'll have to agree to disagree. The sad thing is, the normalization of these police state tactics by the Obama WH will lay the ground for a future radical Republican presidency that will do its damnedest to revoke the very liberal democratic progress that you note, even IF the majority of Americans oppose such actions.

              History will show one of us to be right or wrong. I hope it's you. But I doubt it.

              "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

              by Kombema on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:54:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Do you really think that a country where... (8+ / 0-)

              ...police shoot peaceful protesters point blank with pepper spray, where police torture people with tasers—sometimes to death—and where police can beat someone to death for being drunk or mentally impaired is NOT moving towards a fucking police state?

              You have got to be kidding me.

              Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

              by expatjourno on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 11:14:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think you're more referring (0+ / 0-)

                to the militarization of the police rather than the Federal Government moving toward fascism.

                The former is real, and dangerous -- but local.  I don't find good evidence that the US government is moving toward fascism.  It is, however, moving toward being owned by corporations.

                From Wiki (with the usual caveats)

                Fascism ˈfæʃɪzəm is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in mid-20th century Europe. Fascists seek to unify their nation through a totalitarian state that promotes the mass mobilization of the national community,[3][4] relying on a vanguard party to initiate a revolution to organize the nation on fascist principles.[5] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation[3][6][7][8] and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should obtain living space by displacing ones deemed weak or inferior.[9]
                This is the right-wing, but I don't see it actually coming successfully out of Washington.

                --

                Republicans chap my ass

                Me

                by Marc in KS on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:55:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Al Gore might disagree (0+ / 0-)
                  Gore has long had qualms about the expansion of the surveillance state in the digital age. He made those concerns public this year in his latest book, The Future: Six Drivers of Social Change, in which he warned: "Surveillance technologies now available – including the monitoring of virtually all digital information – have advanced to the point where much of the essential apparatus of a police state is already in place."
                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

                  And given that not only has the federal government refused to intervene in any cases of police brutality but also helped orchestrate the crackdown on OWS, I really do not think you can separate what the police are doing from the direction the federal government is moving.

                  Then there are the examples of right-wing religious loonies being embedded in the highest levels of the military. So I think you are grossly underestimating the seriousness of what is happening.

                  Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

                  by expatjourno on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 07:50:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  So...I'm guessing (10+ / 0-)

            you didn't actually read what the poster you're responding to actually wrote, did you?  Because there was a LOT more in there than just economics.

            Also, since you want more -- The U.S. hasn't just lose a major war in which millions died (seriously, over 2 million Germans died in the military in WWI, that's more than four times the number of Americans that have died in ALL U.S. wars, and over 4 million more were wounded) and which most of the world blamed the for starting, nor is the U.S. under crippling restrictions and forced to make crippling reparation payments as punishment for losing said war.

            And you handwave away economics.  Why, I wonder?  Do you comprehend, even slightly, how severe inflation was?  We're not talking like how we grumble when gas goes up a dime over a holiday weekend.  We're talking about inflation beyond the scale of human imagination.  And I'm not exaggerating when I say that.

            Let me put it in perspective:  In mid-1921, the German Mark was valued at about 60 marks to the dollar.  By the end of 1922,  about 18 months later, it was valued at about 800 marks to the dollar.  The mark was so worthless that nations refused to accept payments in marks and demanded gold or goods instead for their reparation payments.  People's life savings were wiped out.  Imagine if you were a millionaire in 1921.  By mid-1923, your entire life's savings that you'd accumulated up to 1921 would not be enough to buy you a single loaf of bread.  

            Seriously.  By the November 1923, 1 pound of bread cost 3 billion (yes, that's BILLION, with a "B") marks, and a pound of meat cost 35 billion marks.

            In December 1918, that same bread had cost 4 marks.

            And inflation got even worse from there.

            And you somehow think economics is irrelevant?!?

            •  Clearly YOU didn't read, since I didn't deem the (5+ / 0-)

              economic irrelevant. Of course it was, but one does not need a Wiemar Germany level of economic distress to promote authoritarian government. And the United States has a number of parallels, including the current economic distress from the Great Recession -- second only to the Great Depression in its impact.

              You make the mistake of assuming that the only way fascism will reemerge is if historic circumstances like 1930s Germany (or Italy) are reproduced. There are 100s of cases of throughout post-WWII history where police states emerged based on far less. Among the most important factors is when the wealthy class takes advantage of crises, or manufactures them, in order to take over government (this, of course, being a key variable in actual fascism).

              See any parallels there, maybe? Income disparities in the U.S. at similar levels as before the Great Depression in the 1920s? Think the teabaggers or the religious right wouldn't love to institute an authoritarian government in this country? And Obama (and his predecessors) have given them one of the major tools to do that: The mechanisms for a secret surveillance state.

              Tell me again how I'm wrong.

              "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

              by Kombema on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:04:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Workers were paid 3 times a day (4+ / 0-)

              A family member would come to the factory morning, noon, and night to collect the cash and go shopping while it still could buy something.

              I agree.

              Too late for the simple life, too early for android love slaves - Savio

              by Clem Yeobright on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:41:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Such conditions were sufficient to promote (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                expatjourno, Ed in Montana

                totalitarianism -- but there aren't necessary. Far less socio-economic distress, coupled with manipulation of political systems, and aided by secret surveillance apparatuses, are enough to promote such police state conditions. Those of you who think this is no big deal are whistlin' through the proverbial graveyard.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:48:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It seems that you are so ... (1+ / 2-)
                  Recommended by:
                  indubitably
                  Hidden by:
                  expatjourno, marleycat

                  ... infatuated with hyperbole and this specific genre of hyperbole that you probably want to suck its toes. If this one particular type of hyperbole ever left you, you would be lost, a lost soul in a sea of useless other hyperbolic analogies. That you would search the ends of the earth to find this hyperbole, and, if you could, you would grease it up and have wild hyperbole sex in the "p," the "b" and of course the "o" over a long hyperbole weekend, and if the hyperbole didn't call you back the next day, and didn't pick up your repeated calls, you would start hating the hyperbole, put a picture of it on your dartboard, maybe even follow it in your car as it walked analogously down the road ....  

                  I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

                  by Tortmaster on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:36:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    marleycat, Kombema

                    ...without a doubt, one of the most inane, nonsensical series of words I have ever read.  And that is not hyperbole.

                    •  Actually I found it quite imaginatively done (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kombema

                      but it serves an argument I can't support.

                      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                      by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:10:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, good to see some creative insults around (0+ / 0-)

                    here! I pledge to deeply ponder your masterpiece of mixed metaphors. ;o)

                    "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                    by Kombema on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:36:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  ROFLMAO (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          divineorder, 3goldens, Tonedevil
          Someone with any real understanding of that period in history
          and you do? Please . . . . tell us about your credentials. Unless you have such, you get to have an opinion like everyone else, but not to talk down as if you're some kind of authority
          •  B. A. Double Major in History. Is that ok? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ZhenRen, Radiowalla, louisprandtl
            •  As someone that teaches at university— (0+ / 0-)

              no, not really.

              I don't want to say that a B.A. degree is worthless—I help to produce them, after all, and in an allied academic area (the social sciences).

              But there is a significant difference between B.A. level work and the level of knowledge, understanding, and analytical practice necessary to do sound comparative historical analysis.

              Even at the M.A. level, you're on shaky ground.

              When these are the kinds of discussions at issue, don't try to stand on your credentials alone with anything below an M.Phil, if not a Ph.D.

              -9.63, 0.00
              "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

              by nobody at all on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:04:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well (4+ / 0-)

                I appreciate your caveat in the last sentence,  but don't think it is a question of credentials.

                A sound foundation of work as undergraduate coupled with an interest in the field and a couple of decades of reading and observation could easily provide the same level of competence as someone with a Ph.D.  I know too many Ph.Ds who don't have any superior level of understanding as one who has a solid background and a level of curiosity and the leisure time to study.  A good systematic education is the easiest and most direct way, but certainly not the only way.

                . On ne gagne que les combats que l'on mène

                by NearlyNormal on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:28:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Fine, professor. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                beauchapeau, Cedwyn, citizenx, Radiowalla

                But this isn't an intricate discussion of the life of Belgian basket weavers in the 17th century. It's a gross comparison between Weimer Germany and the modern United States of America. On a blog. You don't need a P.H.D to do that. It's not an academic conference.

                •  You have it exactly backward. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fuzzyguy

                  It's the Belgian basket weavers in the 17th century that are accessible. Narrow case, empirical detail, archival and artefact research.

                  It's the big questions and discussions that need to be informed by breadth and depth if they are to be substantive and useful.

                  Think of an analogy: any accountant can probably keep the books at Jim's Basketweaving Emporium—but we wouldn't trust such an accountant to run the Fed, or rely on their long-term predictions about the national or global economies.

                  The bigger the picture and the comparisons, the more nuance, varied detail, complexity, and ambiguity are involved, and the easier it is to slide into crass oversimplification.

                  I'm not an expert on Weimar Germany by any stretch of the imagination, so I have no particular opinion in this discussion that I'd share here.

                  Too bad so many others feel that anyone and everyone understands the comparison and the various ways to frame it and tease out the implications and discontinuities enough to get into a pie fight over it.

                  Sorry, but your comment really frustrates me. It's exemplary of the anti-intellectualism that runs rampant in the U.S., one of the reasons we elect poor policymakers and have poor policy.

                  "Gosh, leave the experts to study the reproductive habits of constipated retired fashion models that bore at least four children while chewing gum in Peru, and all that other useless esoteric shit they do. All we're trying to do is world-historical comparisons on nations, cultures, economies, ethnicities, wars, militaries, and outcomes in the interest of assessing the totalitarian tendencies of the world's remaining superpower and its historically novel and highly classified technological data warehousing project. No need for any particular expertise to do that well.

                  Just shoot from the hip!"

                  -9.63, 0.00
                  "Liberty" is deaf, dumb, and useless without life itself.

                  by nobody at all on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:55:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  And......goodbye. You're done. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Radiowalla, louisprandtl
    •  that's not an apology (18+ / 0-)

      it's just passive aggressive and a nonapology.

      Here's what an apology looks like: I am sorry for offending you

      That's it no modifiers no 'well I am right anyways'

      Till that is issued all OPOL is doing is continuing the same arrogance that started this

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 05:30:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What belittles the Holocaust (24+ / 3-)

      is to ignore what brought it into being as if it was some funny hail stone that fell out of the sky without any context.

      •  HR. You were among the worst offenders (10+ / 1-)

        in that diary.

        And yeah, yeah, you have more mojo than you know what to do with, but wrong is wrong.

        The comparison is obscene.  Under any circumstances.

        "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

        by Yasuragi on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:33:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What is really REALLY DEPRESSING to me (22+ / 5-)

        is that all of these really awesome people made a effort to create a course called "Holocaust Literature" for me and my classmates in high school so that we would learn and "never forget".  Not only did we read the history, but we also read pretty much all of the seminal stories about what happened to the Jewish people (and Armenians) -- and we had survivors come to our classes to describe their experiences.

        I guess it was basically a total waste of time on their part and mine since if there are any signals that any government is ever making any movement (not matter how small) towards that kind of system where systematic persecution of citizens by the state is gaining momentum, we aren't allowed to draw reasonable parallels in order to hopefully stop that insanity from taking hold again.

        I've come to realize that in the early 21st Century, "Never Forget" means keep your fucking mouth shut and keep it to yourself - don't speak - let it happen - and hope that you can evade persecution yourself.  The great news for me is that blonde aryan women are still "ok" - so hey Mets all I can say is, "Sure, no problem!  I'll refrain from referring to this history because what's awesome for me is that I won't be one of the people they round up - and I can almost guarantee that I really will not be."  

        Does that make you feel better Mets? Does it feel great to throw other people under the bus because you can't handle obvious truths?  

        Screw your theory - it is bullshit.  I'm not going to sit on my hands or my history because you can't take the heat.  That's your problem, not mine.

        And people's lives may well and could be at stake if people do not curb this push towards fascism and this government starting to view its citizens as "enemies".

        Screw your theory of bullshit.  If your theory was valid, we'd be burning books about the Holocaust and Germany right now - and of course you'd probably approve of such action - because the truth is that  YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW.  You are too weak and simple minded to cope with that information.

        Have a great night!  :)

        •  Wow! (14+ / 0-)

          Talk about missing the point. Your last Graf is especially idiotic.

          Or did I miss the /snark and you meant it to sound like a blithering idiot wrote it?

          Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

          by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:44:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Take it as you will, but the considerable (15+ / 7-)

            amount of emotional trauma of being a teenager learning about the darkest and most hideous aspects of humanity that I experienced thinking that it was for the purpose of my helping to STOP future horrors and assaults on any citizenry seem to have been a waste of my time based on diaries like this one, Godwin's idiotic "law" and your response to my view, too.

            Why did I need to learn anything about the genocide at all?

            Why should I not be Pollyanna enjoying the ignorance and without slightest inkling that humanity is not pure and driven under your and your ilk's theory of what is acceptable historical review and what is not?

            Oh, maybe why you'd want that is because you'd want me to "hate" Republicans and LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Obama - because that's all that matters to people like you.  

            You people are a bunch of fucking idiots if you think that pursuing these threads on the loom that are being set up to weave a web of entrapment, discrimination and abuse is not a bad idea.  More to think that this President is some sort of be all and end all.

            Here's a news flash: Obama is a TEMP.  Great, you trust him, but that's not always how it is going to be.

            How quickly morAns forget the likes of George W. Bush and even worse, really, Dick (fucking) Cheney.

            •  Oy. (5+ / 0-)

              I would feel sorry for you because you actually believe that we are on our way to murdering 6,000,000 million people but this line:

              Oh, maybe why you'd want that is because you'd want me to "hate" Republicans and LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Obama - because that's all that matters to people like you.  
              Pretty much knocked that sympathy away. It was just so very Glenn Beckish. We're you always this simple minded?

              Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

              by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:15:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't feel sorry for you at all. (14+ / 1-)

                I feel sorry for all of the people that you are using; would fail to protect; and that you would throw under the bus to protect ONE mere mortal.

                I might think more of you if you gave a shit about everyone else in the world on a most basic and humanitarian level.

                And yes - I am simple minded - at the core and the only reason that I participate in this madness called politics is that I care about people that I've never even met and in many instances would not give a damn about me.  

                Whatever.

                •  Jesus Christ you are an asshole. (3+ / 6-)

                  Your description of me not caring about humanity is proof of that. It will get recs because there are tons of assholes who throw out the same fucking bullshit.

                  Look here you fucking little kid, I have done more in my life with people that needed help than you will ever know. And it doesn't involve ranting like a fucking teabagger about people I don't agree with. You stick to making idiotic comparisons on the Internet and throwing tantrums because people don't see what is supposedly happening under their noses. You will forever look like the homeless man screaming at his reflection in the window on the corner.

                  And your friends will always roll their eyes when they see you coming your way.

                  Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                  by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:36:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  OMG!!! (17+ / 0-)

                    You've managed to break a lot of the rules that really should draw hide rates - although I'd prefer that your comment stand and not be hidden.

                    Love, "Simple Minded"

                    Oh and also "you fucking little kid" was pretty inspired {I really like that one!}

                    But to take this all back on topic, your buddy Mets makes it clear that history that upsets the Obama apple cart is not going to be tolerated.  I am here to tell you that you folks are out of luck on that attempt at controlling how people think about this government.  Also, worth noting is that many of us don't really give a damn about Obama's image or legacy when it comes to important questions about the Constitution - not because we have anything against him, but because he like every President is a TEMP.  The Constitution is supposed to be the constant regardless of who is in power.  When that basic assumption is challenged, some of us will respond regardless of who is in power and call it like we see it.

                    Sorry that you think that caring about the framework of government makes me a "fucking idiot little kid."  LOL - people should not have taught me democracy, etc. if they thought it was a problem.

                    •  Go away little one. (0+ / 0-)

                      I have millions of people I need to watch die without a care in the world.

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:55:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  There's that rec again. Nt (0+ / 0-)

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:57:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Wow. (4+ / 0-)

                      Look how you made everything all about you. Well played.

                      You so brave standing up to Met's attack on Democracy. You have become the stalwart firewall against the oppression of hide rates and requests for less invective. Truth to power!

                      I'd tell you to congratulate yourself, but I suspect you already have.

                      If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

                      by ord avg guy on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:58:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  From both of them. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      alain2112

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:59:09 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Too funny. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      sviscusi, alain2112, freakofsociety

                      Look at the recs for the comment where he accuses me of not caring about humanity and then the hrs in my response. Nice consistency.

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:33:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  ugh (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  freakofsociety, sviscusi

                  One ugly nasty comment after another in this thread. All yours.

                  We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                  by Christin on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:54:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Forget Mets... (19+ / 0-)

              He doesn't speak for Jews.  Not Jews like me.  He speaks for himself.  He wasn't complaining about this when it was Bush doing these things, and people here were comparing Bush's domestic spying and torture to historical events and actual policies and documents of Nazi Germany.

              •  The thing is that never forgetting as (11+ / 0-)

                I was taught was not as much about Jews as it was about the entire rainbow of humanity.  Everyone who taught me this was Jewish - which maybe is why I am so fond of that religion and tradition even when  pretty much don't believe in religion - but the important point is that these folks who created the course that I was LUCKY to have been exposed to were HUMANITARIANS of the VERY HIGHEST ORDER.  

                Just amazing people who didn't participate to advance their own religion or their plight, but to do something for EVERYONE THAT WOULD COME INTO THE WORLD AFTER THEM AND MIGHT BE INCLINED TO SAVE LIVES FOR WHATEVER REASON.

                Sorry to "yell", but this is an important distinction.  Of course, all were lobbying to stop persecution of Jews, but not one would have condoned anyone doing what they experienced to any other group of people.  They were amazing, courageous, smart and honorable people.  And not for nothing, they should get a lot of credit for making a bunch of 16 year-olds think about anything other than themselves.

                •  "to do something for EVERYONE THAT WOULD COME..." (4+ / 0-)

                  Bravo.  

                  Edward Snowden is going to live in hiding, possibly for the rest of his life, fearing that some government thug may throw a blanket over his head and send him back to our country in a diplomatic pouch, to be held incommunicado in a prison cell for the rest of his life.  Or, as Mike Rogers said today, tried as a traitor and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law, and we all know that means death.  I don't think they'll kill him, but it's on the table now, I guess.

                  Edward Snowden is teaching us a moral lesson.  I spent most of Monday night convinced that if I had been in his shoes, I would have done the same thing, because I am so fucking mad about all of this.  And towards the end of the evening, I became physically ill from it all, and I realized, I probably do have enough sense of self-preservation to have flinched.  There may be scores of people sitting at those NSA desks participating in things that they know is wrong, just as some CIA agents involved in the Family Jewels activities must have known that what they were doing was wrong, and just as some of the CIA contractors that tortured prisoners in our name probably knew deep down that what they were doing was inexcusable and a war crime.  

                  But most of them didn't do anything about it.  They had no spur of conscience that pushed them to that kind of sacrifice and risk to self.  

                  That's an example of what we can learn from the Holocaust.  

            •  I knew that would get recs. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Christin, sviscusi, freakofsociety

              Not at all surprised at who recced it either. No integrity is a hallmark with that one.

              Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

              by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:19:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly which pedestal of "integrity" is it (6+ / 0-)

                that you stand upon here?

                •  The one where I don't lie about people (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ord avg guy, Christin, freakofsociety

                  nor make claims that they don't  care about humanity because they are not silly enough to make comparisons with one of the worst atrocities in recorded history.

                  Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                  by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:44:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I am not lying about you. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dianna

                    I am sharing my impression of your disposition based on your comments and ideas you support.

                    I have to say that your analysis of my character and me are particularly sophisticated.  lol.

                    Have you reread what you've written in this exchange?

                    Super smart, super reasoned - well not so much - but as you are more of a humanitarian that I could possibly imagine, I was trying to find something nice to say.

                    •  There you have it. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      onanthebarbarian, freakofsociety

                      What ideas would those be? The ones where I am against the NSA programs? Or is it just that I don't think making comparisons to the worst atrocities in history?

                      See if you were "sharing impressions" you would have used words like "I think" but you didn't do that, did you. This is what you wrote:

                      "I might think more of you if you gave a shit about everyone else in the world on a most basic and humanitarian level."

                      Yeah that looks like you sharing an impression. Funny how your friends recced that but hrd me because I called you an asshole. See in your little world calling someone an asshole is a very bad thing. Calling someone a sociopath? Not so much.

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:44:50 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pity parties are never becoming. (0+ / 0-)

                        I NEVER called you a sociopath.

                        Please.

                        •  You said that I don't care about everybody (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          freakofsociety

                          else on the planet. That is a sociopath.

                          Funny that you say I am having a pity party. I am not the one so upset that people think I shouldn't make idiotic comparisons. Life is just so hard for people like you.

                          Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                          by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:13:35 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  "You people are a bunch of fucking idiots.." (10+ / 0-)

              Here we go again.  

              And you managed to add "morAns" to the mix.  Whatever points you were trying to make are destroyed by your ad hominem attacks.  

              It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

              by Radiowalla on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:45:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  ad homs. insults. name calling (8+ / 0-)

              And the usual names up rate your dick comments.

              We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

              by Christin on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:52:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Updatrated (3+ / 0-)

              for HR abuse.  Sheesh, there is nothing in this comment that is HRable.  

              Don't people have anything better to do? '

              Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

              by Nada Lemming on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:02:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  She's most specifically right about that last part (12+ / 0-)

            ... it is weakness.  Diminishing the Holocaust to some crazy thing that had no context and no lessons to learn from it is weakness.  The whole human race (that includes us who are Jews, like me, by the way) have good reason to not just be outraged by the Holocaust, but ASHAMED of it as human beings because it speaks to our own moral weakness to stop bad shit from happening.

            And, whether you like it or not, that's also a political lesson.

            •  Diminishing the history of persecution of (4+ / 0-)

              any given people is a strategic ploy against humanity that has been employed countless times throughout human history.

              The brilliant, bright star that came out of the horror of the Holocaust is that some enlightened people decided to make sure that we never forgot that particular time in history, but also, quite selflessly, made sure that people understood that any people for any reason could be subjected to that madness if we did not remain vigilant in stopping that dark side of humanity.

              That was a really, really impressive effort and I am not going to allow fools decades later to get away with diminishing or twisting that lesson into convenient political fodder.  One of the people who came to my class who was Jewish spent their entire time talking about the Armenians and that genocide.  They made the fair point that had people cared about the Armenians, we might have saved six million (or more Jewish people).  They made the fair point that stopping the madness early and being vigilant about boundaries might have saved many, many lives.  

              I have never forgotten that.

        •  I think you mistyped (9+ / 0-)

          or you were trying to sound like a dick.

          Either way, edit better next time.

          Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

          by Wisper on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 06:50:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes. I should try to be careful not to (4+ / 0-)

            offend you.  I will keep it in mind and thanks for the passive aggressive threat.  Rolling eyes.

            •  No, you should try not to be an asshole (8+ / 0-)

              who's trolling diaries.

              Oh, and there was no threat in Wisper's comment. You are being dishonest.

              Shaking head.

              If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

              by ord avg guy on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:28:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So very little that is dishonest about me. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dianna, happymisanthropy, Yang Guang

                So much so that I would like to point out that I think that you inadvertently hit the recommend button when I believe you wanted to actually hide my comment.

                I will also note that if I have become a troll at dailykos, then - lol - dailykos has changed to the point where you may be right and I should go and find the next place where people really care about democracy and are tough enough to deal with a challenge to their thinking by responding thoughtfully instead of "hiding" that which they would prefer to keep others reading from entertaining or thinking about.

                •  But you're not challenging anyone's thinking. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sviscusi, alain2112, freakofsociety

                  You're hurling invective. That's why you're getting HRed (at least by me). You could choose to challenge someone thinking if you chose, but that's not what is happening in the few comments of yours I have read.

                  I don't know if you've become a troll or not. I'm not that interested to review your comment history. But you've made a couple very trollish comments, comments that are insulting and disruptive and add nothing to any debate, so I HRed the comments (not you).

                  If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

                  by ord avg guy on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:10:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  If you think that it is trollish for me (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sandino, radical simplicity

                    to be wary of and to challenge diaries, thinking and discussions where it is asserted that invoking history of oppression and murder are deemed to be off limits, then so be it.

                    One of us doesn't belong here.  Maybe it is me, but maybe it is you.  That's TBD, I guess.

                    I would like to note that I have no email or network list upon which to call to update my hide rates.

                    If you want to send out an alert to your buddies and hide rate me into oblivion because you don't like what I have to say, then have at it.

                    I will survive.

                    •  I didn't say you were trollish (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      alain2112, freakofsociety

                      I said your comments that I HRed were trollish. Not you,the comments. If I thought you were trollish I would have said "You are trollish". I didn't say that. I said your comments that I HRed were trollish.

                      Do you understand now or do I need to break it down again for you?

                      For you to suggest that my comment in any way whatsoever stated, implied, alluded to or otherwise imparted the thought that I "...think that it is trollish for me to be wary of and to challenge diaries, thinking and discussions where it is asserted that invoking history of oppression and murder are deemed to be off limits, then so be it." then you are being dishonest. My comment is still there, unaltered, in English, and clearly does even allude to anything in your response.

                      You accuse me of having a buddy list to call. I would like you to either retract that baseless accusation, or provide some supporting evidence. If you do neither then you are once again being dishonest.

                      You are not a victim of oppression here. Do you understand that? I am not trying to silence you, ban you or block your ideas. Do you understand that? You made some trollish comments in this diary and they were HRed for being trollish. Again. The comments were trollish, not you. Do you understand that?

                      Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns about our exchange here. If there is anything you didn't understand, or if you feel you are being attacked unfairly let me know and I will do my best to guide you through this exchange.

                      I am going to bed now, so I will be unavailable for any immediate response. Please don't take my absence as anything more than a temporary break while I get some sleep. Perhaps you might consider the same. I am only suggesting. I am certainly not demanding.

                      Be well...Ok...bye.

                      If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

                      by ord avg guy on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:54:07 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes you did accuse me of being a troll (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sandino

                        multiple times, doll baby.

                        I actually don't give a shit whether or not you call me a troll beyond the very real question of whether or not I think that this place is relevant to me any more.  The reality is that your friends love to play the troll card to eliminate people with whom they disagree.

                        I do not think that I am a victim.  I made that clear.  I take ownership and responsibility for what I say on this blog.  If you and your buddies want to hide rate me into oblivion for  saying something that I believe and the admins think that that is proper, I actually am totally fine with it.

                        Anyway, sleep well and happy trails.

                      •  Give up. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ord avg guy, freakofsociety

                        He is just your typical "victim." Think Glenn Beck with a little Christine Odonnel thrown in. Willing to make idiotic claims, attack anyone who disagrees and then whine that they are being attacked.

                        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                        by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:12:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  You really can't be taken seriously (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sandino

                    in your judgments about "hurling invective" at this point.

                    You've attacked me for perceived transgressions, but haven't done a thing about others with whom you agree hurling invective.

                    Your delicate sensibilities seem not to be so delicate where it comes to pretty impressive invective from your buddies.

                    I think that that is what's interesting about your crowd.  You guys seem to hurl insults without the slightest self awareness.  I knew when I wrote my first comment challenging what I thought - really thought - was wrong-headed thinking that I would be attacked by the folks who follow Mets.

                    Unlike you and your friends, I wasn't offended or getting the vapors about what I thought was crazy talk - I just responded honestly.

                    Ya'll hurl really impressive accusations, misdirect and generally deflect any real dialogue.  I should not have bothered to write a long comment to expose my thinking.  I probably should have just taken your tack and screamed "troll!", "asshole", and whatever else you geniuses came up with in this thread in response to what what a very honest and real response that I had to this diary.

                    But unlike you, I knew that the odds were not good for me.  I knew that anything other than complete agreement and lockstep, jackbooted acquiescence would be greeted with totally annihilation tactics rather than dialogue.

                    If that's where daily kos has landed at this point, then your hide rates are badges of honor.

                    Happy trails!

                    •  Did I scream "Troll"? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      alain2112

                      That's your accusation against me. Support it or retract it. Otherwise you are being dishonest.

                      So what is it? Are you being dishonest again, or did I scream "Troll" at you? Or did I specifically say that I wasn't calling you a troll, I was identifying your comments that I HRed as trollish?

                      Your persecution complex was hilarious at first. Now it is really just sad.

                      Lying liars lie, doncha know.

                      If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

                      by ord avg guy on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:03:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  And the rec I gave you was not intended (0+ / 0-)

                  to be a HR. Nor was it intended to be a rec. I have removed it. Thanks for pointing it out.

                  If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

                  by ord avg guy on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:13:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Your whole comment was a (10+ / 0-)

          personal attack, but I couldn't let this pass without ofeering you a donut.

          You are too weak and simple minded to cope with that information.

          Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

          by OIL GUY on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:03:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks so much, but unfortunately (7+ / 0-)

            it is a true statement.

            When people start to negate history in order to defend a position that is untenable, they pretty much deserve that pointed criticism.  If the Daily Kos folks and Kos think that I should be thrown out, then that is what it will be.

            I have no problem making that statement in response to a diary such as this one and living with the consequences of responding in kind.  I will not be bullied into keeping my mouth shut about injustices now or those that took place then.

            •  Frankly, I don't know where you get the nerve (4+ / 0-)

              to call yourself inclusiveheart, while you spew ugly invective at those who don't agree with you. Very puzzling.

              "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

              by helpImdrowning on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:55:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  LOL - yeah - being inclusive is (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino

                supposed to mean that you let people steam roll over you and you let murderers and rapists live in your house - not.

                There are rules that need to be observed in the social compact.

                Not sure why that concept would be puzzling to you unless your intent was to break, bend or twist them to the point of no recognition.

                Did you think that "inclusiveheart" was a moniker for a Nazi lover, for instance?

                Sheesh.

                Sorry, you're not the first to ask this, but I still am amazed that people think that being inclusive means that there are no basic and reasonable rules of society that can be applied.

                •  I'm curious if you are on something, or drinking? (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm serious, you don't make any sense, why are you talking about not letting murderers and rapists live in your house? And what does all of that have to do with asking me if my intent is to break, bend, or twist social rules to the point of no recognition? Finally, why would I think "inclusiveheart" is a moniker for a Nazi lover? I'm sorry but none of it makes any sense. I hope you are alright. If you need some help I hope you will contact a friend or family member. I wish you well.

                  "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy -7.8., -6.6

                  by helpImdrowning on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:00:34 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  She's right. (8+ / 0-)

            It's moral cowardice to not want to learn more general lessons from the Holocaust.  Oddly enough, many of those lessons are political lessons.

            •  Moral cowardice? (8+ / 0-)

              Holy smoke, there is an amazing amount of trash being talked here tonight.  

              It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

              by Radiowalla on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:47:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm a Jew. (8+ / 0-)

                I don't speak for all Jews when I say this:  

                I believe the Holocaust was a social, political, and MORAL FAILURE.  And that important lessons must be learned from it because we all share these faults.

                •  I know. You point it out in every (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mets102, OIL GUY, askew, freakofsociety

                  post you make.  It doesn't give you any ground, pro or con, to judge the moral fitness of others here.  Your opinion is just that.  

                  It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

                  by Radiowalla on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:58:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It seems that if he didn't point out he is a Jew (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Dumbo, radical simplicity

                    there are people here who would pile on with hide rates, since he isn't agreeing with their Officially Approved View™ about the topic.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:03:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, I RARELY mention that I'm Jewish, (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ZhenRen, Angryallen, Dianna

                    kind of assume it's understood by most people around here by the context of things.  

                    But Mets wants to play the "You can't talk about the Holocaust because we're the Jews" card, I think maybe I have to actually say it out loud.  Mets doesn't speak for me.

                    You know, some people use Pearl Harbor as a bludgeon.  Like, yelling at an Asian, "Pearl Harbor, buddy!"  Using the Holocaust like that would be very wrong, and I have seen it used that way.  It is cheap, and it is stupid.

                    But I really don't trust Mets that that's his motive here.  Defending Obama from liberals has been his full time job here for some time.  So when he comes along making this a Jewish thing rather than a political thing, well, somebody needs to point out, METS DOES NOT SPEAK FOR US ALL.

                    •  So you are saying that, (8+ / 0-)

                      as a strong supporter of Obama, Mets' motives in complaining about the Holocaust references are not to be trusted?   You are claiming that he is "playing the Jew card."  

                      I think I'm done here.  

                      It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

                      by Radiowalla on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:06:03 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah, I suspect it's just less about (0+ / 0-)

                        the Holocaust or being Jewish and more about "shut up and stop saying bad things."  

                        When Alan Grayson made his comment on the floor of the House about the health care crisis being a Holocaust, I criticized him sharply for it.  I did that even though I WAS ON HIS SIDE.  I did it because that IS hyperbole, no parallel to be made without obscene stretching of the truth.  It was like saying about a losing basketball game, "It's a holocaust, too!"  I didn't bother to point out that I was a Jew, maybe because I think most people who've been around here for a while know where I am on all that.

                        I was HR'ed for that comment against Grayson, maybe for some of the people HR'ing me upstream.  

                        But we all know what kind of diaries Mets post.  They're always, "Stop saying bad things about Obama!" or some variation thereof.  Well, fair enough.  He's entitled to his opinion on that, and I could respect that opinion.

                        This time it's, "I'm Mets and you can't say that about Obama because I'M A JEW."  As if he's The One here.  I suspect we're about 25% Jewish here on DailyKos, or some other skewed number, so whatever.  

                        In one comment thread in OPOL's diary, he posted a picture of a menorah at me.  Like I'm the Hannukah Vampire and he was going to drive me off with it.  

                    •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dumbo

                      He does not speak for this Jew, either.  In fact, whatever he's saying, mark me down for the opposite.

                    •  I've never heard Mets defend the President (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Cedwyn, freakofsociety

                      from liberals. I have seen him defend the President from a number of jerks, however.

                      Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

                      by OIL GUY on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 10:54:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Btw (4+ / 0-)

          If you really think that we are on the road to the murder of 6,000,000 people in a specific subset of Americans or 10-11,000,000 people of a number of subsets of Americans then I just don't know what to say to you.

          Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

          by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:04:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What I really think is that we should not (5+ / 0-)

            even get remotely close to that road - and there are EXTREMELY GOOD REASONS TO BELIEVE  that doing certain things could pave that road for people who want to drive that route.

            What the fuck does everyone think it is better to let things get to the point where we are on the verge of totally collapse before we want to do anything to stop getting there?  WHY?

            Why can't we all say, "Shit, that route ultimately will lead to a lot of destruction.  Let's find another path."  Why the hell is that so hard?

            My answer in part is that as a collective in the 21st Century we have decided to IGNORE history for whatever ridiculous and stupid reasons.  You want to be a fool, that's your choice, but I'm not going to join you nor am I going to take orders from you about how to think, analyze or respond.  

            It is that simple.

            Thanks for playing.

          •  you seem to have trouble with analogies and (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat, inclusiveheart

            metaphors (hint: they're not to be taken literally)

            "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

            by eXtina on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:22:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Road to 6 million... (9+ / 0-)

            Read my long comment below, because I address that question.

            It doesn't have to lead to 6 million Jews being killed.  It just has to lead to things like this, The Family Jewels, which we learned about during the Church Commission hearings of the 70s.  We have our own ugly history in the United States of secret intelligence agencies attacking and hurting Americans.

            "Oh, but that's not six million people!"

            How do you think they got to that point?  It was because the German people acted like sheep (and not just them -- we Jews did too, and we should be held accountable for our own moral cowardice in not acting more swiftly).  The turning point when such things can be stopped passes because everybody is afraid to not treat things as business as usual.

          •  We are on the road to totalitarianism (0+ / 0-)

            Not every instance of totalitarianism has to end in exactly the same place with exactly the same number of casualties. However, isn't one death by summary execution as a result of a police state run amok too many?

            You seem hung up on the number rather than on the underlying morality.

        •  The Usual Squabble Where Rage = "Niceness" nt (0+ / 0-)

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:07:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, see how it came about, (5+ / 0-)

        but don't go around willy nilly comparing US politicians (short of a Kim Jon Un) to Hitler or the American Government to Nazi Germany.

        That's just bonkers.

        If you want to compare, do it in a very articulate and well reasoned manner (with SPECIFIC examples), don't just go around muttering to people "I guess your just a 'good German'".

        That does NOTHING for your argument.

        UNINSTALLING MITT ROMNEY..... █████████████ 100%

        by saxoman1 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:06:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  OOPS! Obviously Kim Jon Un in not a US Politician (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freakofsociety, Cedwyn

          This was an editing mistake (eg. politicians in general)

          UNINSTALLING MITT ROMNEY..... █████████████ 100%

          by saxoman1 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:07:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  nobody did that (0+ / 0-)
          but don't go around willy nilly comparing US politicians (short of a Kim Jon Un) to Hitler or the American Government to Nazi Germany.

          "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

          by eXtina on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:22:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Somehow, I suspect that many of these complaints (4+ / 0-)

          about Hitler comparisons wouldn't have been here back when we were complaining about Bush's domestic spying and torture and rendition programs.

          I guess, through a gradual stepwise process, we've become accustomed to the idea that this is how the United States is now, and that it's going to get worse, secretly.

          To people like me, that reminds me of what happened in Germany in the 30s, like the Enabling Act, the response to the "terrorist" act of the Reichstag Fire.

          •  I was around during those times. (4+ / 0-)

            But trust me, I'll rail against ANY comparisons to Hitler. I may have hated GWB, but to compare him to Hitler would be the height of outrageous rhetoric.

            UNINSTALLING MITT ROMNEY..... █████████████ 100%

            by saxoman1 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:58:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I remember when Andrew Sullivan (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              happymisanthropy

              (no great liberal is he) posted this document by Reinhold Heydrich about "Verschafte Vernehmung", which can be translated as either "sharpened interrogation" or as "enhanced interrogation."

              Does this make Bush Hitler?

              No.

              Does it mean that his Enhanced Interrogation policies were consistent with that spectrum of police state tactics that didn't just permit but demanded comparison to the Nazis?

              Yes.

              Was it a war crime?  

              Yes.

              Did anybody suffer for it?

              Only the victims.  Because we were supposed to put the past behind us and move on.  Somebody should have been put on trial, or at least forced to beg for a political pardon (which I would have accepted, ala, South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation).

              I don't feel wrong at all in comparing some of the things that Bush did to those of the Nazis, if for no other reason than that we quickly run out of examples of codified law in developed western democracies where terrorism and war became excuses for why human prisoners must be tortured by the state.

          •  You would be wrong. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            saxoman1, freakofsociety

            It has always been unacceptable.

            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

            by Mike S on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 09:48:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Back when we had the weekly (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dumbo, fuzzyguy

            "This week in fascism" series in 2005, there was none of this "ooh, you can't say that" stuff.

      •  Or to forget that 5 million people other that Jews (5+ / 0-)

        were also exterminated.

        Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature.

        by ZenTrainer on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:42:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  True. We Jews don't own the Holocaust. (3+ / 0-)

          However, as a Jew, (and I don't speak for all, and certainly not for Mets), I feel a responsibility to understand how things like this ever get started and to be learn from its lesson, to be aware of human social and moral and political weakness.

          I don't know what lesson Mets thinks we should learn from it, if any.

      •  Uprated... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dianna, Dumbo, OutcastsAndCastoffs

        Considering that the commenter is Jewish, it seems he certainly has as much right as anyone to state how he views the Holocaust.

        Or do others here think they own the topic? I happen to agree with the comment. And that has been the entire point that sparked this discussion.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:45:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  yeah, OPOL apologized. almost three days later. (15+ / 0-)

      claiming that the lining up for showers line was not a direct reference to Nazis (wtf?)

      but yeah, he apologized.

      meanwhile, in the diary itself, he ignored repeated requests by people on both sides of the controversy asking him to take that showers line out.

      and in the diary he also rec'd someone who said "Line up for showers you dumbasses.  GREAT line."

      And the rec is still there.

      he rec'd a comment where someone called others Good Germans... then claimed that was not a direct reference to Nazis either.

      And the rec is still there.

      OPOL is trying to have it both ways.  apologizing while standing by his original diary ending and recs.

      IMO the line and the recs would be changed by someone who was serious about wishing he hadn't done it

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:18:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And this is how it ended. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      freakofsociety
      If I offended those who support, rationalize, defend or are apathetic to the grave threat posed to our democracy by the National Security State, while I'm not glad your feelings were hurt, I can't help but think that they deserved to be. It is my sincere and earnest belief that you need to be awakened before it is too late. I have tried.
      my emphasis

      Offense was not taken by the argument against "support, rationalize, defend or are apathetic to the grave threat posed to our democracy by the National Security State ..."

      That sort of argument would go something like:

      -  How the collection of information by the state is categorically different and more prone to potentially dire erosions of privacy and personal liberty than the collection of info by companies since due to the differences in power.  
      - Or, it might include a persuasive argument about how personal privacy is critical for liberty to flourish in a democratic society and why this is the case.
      - It might include disapointment  --> extreme outrage with President Obama and the use of past statements to make a case that he has been hypocritical regarding this issue.
      - And, it could even include how the KGB, or Romania's  Ceaușescu, or the Nazi SS, or Mynmar which supplanted a free press with a propaganda machine and spied on their own people -- with examples of regular people and activists who were persecuted/ jailed/ silenced.

      Offense was not taken from or with this sort of argument.

      At issue was the use of the Holocaust, whether directly or obliqely, in an attempt to bolster an argument against the NSA's actions.  And, the ending of the "apology" which explicitly told anyone who was hurt that they deserved to be.  

      When, and only when, legislation is being considered to restrict an ethnic, racial, or religious group from access to public and private places, or laws are being debated to round up members of these groups for forced relocation with the confiscation of their property, and the power of the state is used for mass genocide and the enslavement of group members ... then, the reference to and evocation of the Holocaust could be appropriate.  Otherwise, not.

      Used in any other situation, the allusion is not only not helpful, but also offensive and painful.

      Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World

      by bkamr on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:41:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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