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  •  What Is It With Old, White Republican Men? (57+ / 0-)

    They are working overtime to wrest control back from women.  Intimidated?  Frightened women will take their jobs?  More comfortable w/ the 1950's?  An attempt to recreate the days of June Cleaver when the little woman stayed home?

    Many of them are married.  The only vagina they should be worrying about is their wife's.   They really need to keep their snouts out of everyone else's vagina.  

    And....for people who are so into the Constitution, they need to understand that abortion is a Constitutionally protected right.    


    •  All of these: (31+ / 0-)
       Intimidated?  Frightened women will take their jobs?  More comfortable w/ the 1950's?  An attempt to recreate the days of June Cleaver when the little woman stayed home?
      Plus a profound belief in their God given superiority.

      If the Republicans ever find out that Barack Obama favors respiration, we'll be a one-party system inside two minutes. - Alan Lewis

      by MadRuth on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:46:47 AM PDT

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      •  Take all of the above one step further- (8+ / 0-)

        If the white men in control can make abortion illegal, they can slow down the rate at which they become minorities in this country. I would be willing to bet that if they could get away with saying that only abortions for white women were illegal, they would do it.

      •  An enduring mystery. (10+ / 0-)

        I passionately want to understand what gives rise to this.  What do they tell each other as they pass forced pregnancy and anti-contraception and anti-healthcare laws?  What they profess is so nonsensical that a sentient human couldn't manage it.  Surely there are whistleblowers who know and who have come over to the good side.  Can they tell us?

        I get that fear of us is part of it, but how can they overtly hate us, try to subjugate us, and not be at least partly aware of why they're doing it?

        Is there a substantiated and direct correlation between fundamentalist religious belief and anti-woman policies?
        Not just anecdotes (of which there are plenty, sadly), but experimental data.

        While we stand off from a distance and try to understand, though, they're working their destruction.  Shame doesn't seem to work anymore.  Every individual seems to feel free to say the ugliest thing he can think of, sure that a twitterer somewhere will come to his defense.  Is that -- or is "wisdom" handed down from the pulpit -- their ultimate cover?

        Deference to accepted authoritarians isn't enough.  WHY are those authoritarians accepted, unless they're congruent with some deeply held belief?

        I just need to understand.  I thought I did, but I clearly don't.

        Guidance, dear Kossacks?

        (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 11.3 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

        by argomd on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:03:53 AM PDT

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        •  I wish I could help you (10+ / 0-)

          It IS nonsensical.

          If I were a passionate religious fundamentalist who truly cared about the "murder" of "babies," I'd be in a frenzy right now about the report released in April that one neighborhood in Cleveland — near two world-class medical centers — has an infant mortality rate higher than that of Haiti or Rwanda, and that numerous urban neighborhoods in the state have infant mortality rates triple or quadruple the national average. I'd be demanding that the Ohio budget bill address THAT.

          There are some primary connectors missing with these people, including compassion.

          Jon Husted is a dick.

          by anastasia p on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:32:06 AM PDT

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        •  A complex mix, but reinforcing purposes. (11+ / 0-)

          Many things have been touched on in other comments, but all of them are active.

          Power, control, economics, beliefs, religion, all mixed together.

          White men have held power for centuries.  The browning of America frightens them witless.  "We need more white babies".

          White women have been the major beneficiaries of affirmative action, workplace equality, and other movements.  They are frightened to have to compete on anything near equal grounds.

          Flat out control.  Women must be subjugated.  Women must do what men say.  Sexual liberation challenges that control at a very deep level and in multiple ways.

          Beliefs - despite the fact that we have 7B people and have been the top predator on this planet for millenia, some people think that we still need unrestricted procreation.  Occasionally, they will even be honest about this.  We don't.

          Economics - the majority of college students are now women.  Men have been losing relative advantage for decades.  The old narratives about how to attract a wife don't work when men are "underdogs".

          Some people are disturbed by the idea that they are not better than anyone else.  The Republican party and their thuggish tactics salve that need.

          It's not any one thing.  People are rarely truly single issue voters.  But there is a very toxic section of this stew.

          -7.75 -4.67

          "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

          There are no Christians in foxholes.

          by Odysseus on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:51:47 AM PDT

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          •  Fear what they can't control? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, avsp, DSPS owl

            That is so very true.

            But why now, and why in these illogical (and ultimately self-defeating) ways?  Who or what gives them sanction to act & speak in these ways?

            I get the "we desperately need more white babies" argument of the old white men.  It's also clearly revealed in their immigration stances (can't bring myself to call it policy).

            But cutting SNAP benefits?  That affects proportionally more anglos than minorities, doesn't it?  And anti-choice, anti-contraception policies affect all, not just the hated minorities.  Anti-poor?  That's not tilted toward minorities, either.  Or am I wrong?  Are they just acting based on severely flawed conceptions?  Surely there are at least a few numerically literate among them.


            (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 11.3 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

            by argomd on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:02:00 AM PDT

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            •  Yes. (8+ / 0-)
              But cutting SNAP benefits?  That affects proportionally more anglos than minorities, doesn't it?  And anti-choice, anti-contraception policies affect all, not just the hated minorities.  Anti-poor?  That's not tilted toward minorities, either.  Or am I wrong?  Are they just acting based on severely flawed conceptions?
              Conservatism can never fail.  Conservatism can only be failed.  If you fail, it's because you weren't conservative enough.

              They truly believe that poor people are lazy.  Despite substantial evidence that many social dynamics are hardcore lotteries, they act upon the belief that simply trying harder guarantees success.

              In the depths of the recession in 2008-2009, I spent 9 months unemployed.  16 months into my current position, I was named Employee of the Month.  Given that I am capable of performing at a high level, why did it take ANY employer so long to recognize that fact?

              Despite the failure of welfare drug testing in FL, TX still voted for it.  The narrative overrides everything.  And look on facebook, you will see hundreds of people sharing memes like "If I have to piss in a cup for work, you have to piss in a cup for welfare".  Nobody every questions the requirement for the drug test.  Eliminating waste is better for everyone, but the preferred answer is to force everyone to waste time, money, and effort.  Drives me batty.

              Personal effort is not enough.  And if you take their economic statements to logical conclusions, it just reinforces the failures.  "We need more entrepreneurs".  Well, that may be true in small senses, but if everyone were entrepreneurs some (most) would still fail.  What then?  Not every business succeeds.  More importantly, not every business CAN succeed.  There are only so many laundromats that we can actually support.  What do you do with people who are not successful?  Besides blame them for the systemic failure, of course.  C students are still people.

              "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the good side of this motivation.  "Better than" is more important than just "better".  Absolute success is irrelevant, relative success is what matters.  Many blue collar men see themselves losing relatively, and need to strike out in some way.

              The bad side is expressed as "Kiss up and kick down".  There must always be a defined population that you can kick.  That's not women anymore.  Who's next?  Don't be next.

              -7.75 -4.67

              "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

              There are no Christians in foxholes.

              by Odysseus on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:21:52 AM PDT

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              •  Yep, this rings lots of bells! (4+ / 0-)
                Absolute success is irrelevant, relative success is what matters....There must always be a defined population that you can kick.
                The answers seem much closer now.

                I'm old enough to remember Alabama in the 1950s, when we poor white trash (no " marks, because we were poor and white, and frequently trashy) could feel good about ourselves as long as we had the "colored" to look down on and sneer at and lynch when we felt like it.

                Which is why I haven't been back south for decades.

                Things don't seem to have changed much.  There are just so many minority communities available to treat as "other", so the Cons have so many reasons to feel superior, so many "others" to step on as they crawl to what they perceive as the top of the heap.  So many more options from which they can choose.

                But I'm still surprised that Cons don't seem to do much self-examination or history reading.  Unless one belongs to a "tribe" that rewards myopia and ignorance as remaining within the narrow boundaries enforced by membership in the privileged group.

                Not my group.  Not yours.  Not one I'd care to join.

                It seems to me that the anti-female, anti-poor, anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant acts and speeches are just variations on the theme of racism.  If so, we're either experiencing the last acts of desperate people or rampant decay.  I would prefer the former.

                Am I naive or wrong here?  

                (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 11.3 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

                by argomd on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:15:28 PM PDT

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          •  Also, the ever-expanding Capitalistic need for (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            argomd, millwood

            consumers, wage-slaves, and cannon fodder.

            My other car is a pair of boots.

            by FutureNow on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:18:22 AM PDT

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        •  Sex as pay-to-play (5+ / 0-)

          The great thing about conservative policy preferences is that the fact they don't work just makes the proponents feel even more deserving, morally superior, and generally smug than ever.  It's a win-win-- if others suffer the restrictive policies they've brought the undesirable elements to heel, and those who rebel suffer enough to make the conservatives feel better about themselves.

          Creating anxiety and dread around sex serves both social and economic purposes, by keeping young & poor people paralyzed by fear (or suffering, as mentioned above) and more likely to be bound to work and marriage.  Frightened people with few options are more compliant & easier to push around, whether by bosses or local church busybodies or spouses who hold the purse strings.  People who love a kiss-up/kick-down hierarchy also love a system that kills independence; it's much easier than actually enforcing all those rules personally.

          "Conservative principles" are marketing props used by the Conservative Movement to achieve political power, not actual beliefs. -Glenn Greenwald

          by latts on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:00:26 AM PDT

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        •  I also suspect that women controlling their (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          argomd, Mayfly, Ahianne, MadRuth

          own reproductions scares the hell out of them because it means gasp women can have recreational sex.  You know, sex because it's fun.

          If women can do that and actually chose their partners based on quality of sex, they sure as hell won't chose these losers who consider foreplay to be telling their wives to roll over.

          If they control reproduction, they control women's sexuality and that ensures their access to sex on their terms.  

          Sad, actually.

          My dogs think I'm smart and pretty.

          by martydd on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:29:37 AM PDT

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          •  Sad indeed. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            orangecurtainlib, DSPS owl

            Got to ditto your comment.  But controlling women gives them much more than sex on demand, doesn't it?  It keeps us from competing with them on many other fields.

            Why suddenly in the last few years, though?  Their attitudes have persisted since forever, but their overt legislative anti-female (etc.) mania seems to have arisen fairly recently (cf. rise of states' anti-choice laws 2010-forward).

            Unless I'm not seeing something right.  It seems to be timed with the Obama Derangement Syndrome and the institutionalized filibuster.  Is that a clue to why?

            Trying hard to understand, and your help is greatly appreciated.

            (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 11.3 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

            by argomd on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:22:31 PM PDT

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          •  martydd, excellent point! nt (0+ / 0-)

            Fiscal conservative: a Republican ready to spend $5 to save a dime--especially if that dime is helping a non-donor.

            by Mayfly on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:49:24 PM PDT

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        •  Authoritarian world view -- Read Lakoff to grok (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          argomd, Ahianne, DSPS owl

          Conservatives and progressives view the world using different frames. While ours supports self-determination, community, empathy, and fairness, theirs focuses on conformity, tradition, and respect for authority.

          George Lakoff succinctly and brilliantly explains this in his writings, such as Don't Think of an Elephant.

          Respect for authority means a lot of different things to a lot of different conservatives, but rank, money, maleness, whiteness, height, dominance, establishment stylings, tradition, etc., all variously represent goodness -- and even morality (i.e. upstandingness, correctness) -- to them.  

          Reproductive freedom empowers women, and authoritarians are waxing ruthless in quashing these rights to our self-determination because they incorrectly think women should not have that much power over ourselves.

          •  Thanks for the reference! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I've added it to my shopping cart but will have to wait until next month to actually buy.

            That said, I've heard a bit about the 'framing' issue, and J. Haidt details it in his book as perhaps the only way to engage the other side.  Both he and Chris Mooney describe Cons' adherence to authorities in maintaining their positions.

            (I lost interest in Haidt for lots of reasons, but I recognize his argument.)

            But we progressives are not included in their debates.  We are not qualified in their system to be authorities, so I wonder if even our best 'framing' of our positions would ever impact them -- much less change their minds.

            That's my skepticism, though, and I'll read what Lakoff has to say first.

            Many thanks!

            (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 11.3 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

            by argomd on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:51:12 PM PDT

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            •  True - and we progressives need to assert power (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              argomd, DSPS owl

              rather than expect to be granted it by those who fundamentally don't believe we should have it.

              A personal case in point: My neighborhood committee was being outpowered by a commercial property owner in a land-use debate. I had to point out to my fellow committee members that we, the neighbors, weren't just citizens or residents, but that we (most on the committee) are also property owners. We had been reluctant to assert power, preferring to be nice instead -- which expressed fundamental values we share (empathy, power-sharing, consideration of others). But using the term property owners -- collectively -- gave us a much more powerful footing relative to our opponent.

              Another case in point: Rather than waiting for male startup owners and male funders to hire us or fund our startup products and services, groups of women are getting together to self-organize, found businesses, and become angel investors. A lot of men may not share power willingly and some variously have difficulty seeing women as successful startup execs, but we can bring our own products to the market and learn how to invest our capital toward each others' successes.

    •  It's only recently it's really hit me that they (33+ / 0-)

      really are acting against women, not acting for anything (except for exerting control )
      I wonder what that is too
      but then like most of us I came of age when there was birth control, abortion was legal, I could take so many rights for granted

      Maybe for those old white men women and minorities getting all uppity was just too hard to take...
      But it isn't all old dudes being smug and trying to go back in time. Most of them also came of age in the 70s or later so being old isn't an excuse for them, if it is an excuse at all.

      Somehow it is those ultra sound, probing or otherwise, that seems the dead give away.  If they can't stop the abortions then they will punish us for them. There is no benefits, no justifications. If they just wanted us aware of the tiny being within because we are obviously too dumb to know it already they would make us watch a movie, look at clear pictures of the embryo at whatever stage of pregnancy. The blurry blob of a regular ultrasound does not show daddy's eyes or grandma's smile, they just want to make women go through the procedure and pay for it and use up the time of the machines and technicians and doctors.

      If babies were conceived into pods that would be one thing but we are not pods. The impact on bodies and lives and jobs and health and wealth...
      But they smugly take it on as their choice.
      It spins the head

      I am past any risk of pregnancy but I feel mightily offended by every statement, vote and law that seeks to control in ways they have no right all of it. I am white and middle aged, my voting isn't threatened and I don't get food stamps or unemployment, I won't go hungry.
      But it feels like a personal attack every time they act against people in those ways
      and that is pretty much everything they do or try to do.

      and I don't understand it.
      If you figur it out and think of a way to fix it (hypnosis, truth serum, Jesus coming down to lecture them, anything) let me know

    •  You had to ask. (7+ / 0-)

      Image Hosted by

      What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

      by happymisanthropy on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:23:59 AM PDT

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    •  They truly believe this. (0+ / 0-)

      Faced with their own mortality, their own aging, loss of virility, masculinity and looming insignificance - that which they cannot accept or reconcile.

      Fear ...

      They truly believe the cause of all their worldly suffering is caused by some religious dogma (and their own twisted interpretation of it).

      There is no "sane" person beneath all these layers of hatred and scorn - this is what they are.

      “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

      by RUNDOWN on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:55:26 AM PDT

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