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  •  Great. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webranding, shaharazade, Lujane, JML9999

    I have a yahoo account. They're coming after me.

    I'll be under my bed if you need me, with my dogs, of course, as loyal protection.  

    Well, until they get hungry.


    © grover

    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:12:41 AM PDT

    •  I An A Tech Nerd And A Lot Of The Folks (11+ / 0-)

      I follow on Twitter are the folks that make the products we all use on a daily basis. Honestly many of them are freaking out. They are talking about going "old school" and running their own email client. Pulling everything out of the "cloud." Or as one person said, at least make the government try a little harder to collect and read their information.

      •  Well, that's one thing. I'm tech un-savvy (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        webranding, Catte Nappe, shaharazade

        Enough (and unorganied enough) that I don't have clouds.

        It's always worked for me. So I just figured if it ain't broke, why fix it?

        I have a hotmail and a yahoo account. Yahoo gets my junk mail. Hotmail gets stuff like "your electric bill is due."

        If the NSA wants to pay my electric bill, I'd appreciate it, especially as we head into air conditioning season.

         I still make phone calls, which I realize is increasingly rare. I have a digital landline via Comcast cable which I presume has metadata too, or at least is easily obtainable.  

        Does anyone know if old school "ma bell" land lines are similarly traceable? It used to be that local calls weren't. Maybe we need to go seriously old school.

        Carrier pigeons?

        Oh wait, stool pigeons...

        Never mind.

        © grover

        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:35:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Got Issues With The Government Doing This (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grover, ybruti, kurious

          on many different levels, but what I never hea said is how ineffective this is. I use Twitter as an example. I'd love to follow Markos or Keith Olbermann, but I can't cause they send out too many tweets. They "pollute" my stream and I might miss something important.

          It is the same with what the government is doing on a scale like a million times higher. They are grabbing everything, so they don't miss anything. But the key is how they find what they need to find in billions and billions of files.

          Honestly they can't.

          •  Seriously. (7+ / 0-)

            I have a folder just for my Amazon purchase emails. I recently purchased 3 bags of dog food and a couple cases of canned food to be sent to a shelter. All from Amazon itself, right? (Third party vendors increase the number of emails)

            1. Auto reply. Thanks for your order.
            2. Your bagged dog food has been shipped.
            3. Your canned dog food is delayed 3 days. Let us know if you want to cancel.
            4,5,6 here are the tracking numbers for the bagged dog food shipments.
            7. Here's the tracking number for the canned.
            8,9,10,11. Your items (tracking numbers) were delivered.
            12. did you want to review the canned dog food?

            Now, Amazon's system auto generates these. So it's losing virtually nothing by communicating with me. And I like (well enough) knowing whats going on with gift purchases).

            But you can imagine how many thousand of these emails I Have sitting in my hotmail Amazon folders.

            Yes, I prefer the government doesn't know everything I buy there. But if they want to sort through all the dog food and deodorant emails just to see what books I buy (dog training books mostly) then wow, how much time did they just take away from investigating tips from Russian intelligence?  Tips and investigations that could have saved lives.

            It's all very ridiculous. What's the old saying? Like trying to drink from a fire hose?

            © grover

            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:41:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ah, but if you change flavors of dog food (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              smiley7, DRo, shaharazade

              or if you want a different brand...this COULD be a covert signal to unleash the hounds of hell...  How does one know?'s imperative that the gummint know your every move.  Why, just a strange inflection in your voice could mean the unthinkable.  

              What if you discussed having really bad flatulence?  Could be you were having that last meal of chicken-fried camel hump and steamed eel before strapping that package of cherry-bombs to your wazoo and heading for the ever crowded walmart service desk.

              All this important.  That's why the NSA MUST spend gazillions...and KNOW everything.  I a type this on my enigma keyboard to a paper tape reader to a digitally encoded etch-a-sketch...prefer my privacy.


              The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis. - Dante Alighieri

              by Persiflage on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:09:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That's what data mining is for (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, smiley7, k9disc, chuckvw, ybruti

              Individual spooks don't look through your data. Computers do. The spooks don't get involved until the data mining algorithms find something "interesting".

              Expect lots of false positives, however "sophisticated" the algorithms become. Hence this is a jobs program for snoops -- and data miners. Homeland Security is destined to be the biggest growth industry in the US.

              •  THIS really ought to be the kicker for us! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                smiley7, atana

                This is not just a growing industry. It's the growing industry. Both the State and Corporate have huge profits just waiting for them here...

                Watching the TSA staff in airports grow exponentially to wave test strips over water bottles and to check our shoes, and not to mention the giant machines and the acceptance of the national security state has been hard.

                Your comment here really puts an exclamation point on it for me. This isn't just going on, it's HUGE business! The profit potential and potential for power is just incalculable.

                Great comment.

                Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

                by k9disc on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:45:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  NSA is 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 I cook my dog food (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              xxdr zombiexx

              in a PRESSURE COOKER.

              comment now being streamed to the hot file

              Btw, today I drove by the 1,000,000 sq foot NSA center being built here in Utah.  No windows and I think most of it must be underground.  It has its own windturbines, water treatement center, 60 mW power station (or something like this) and is adjacent to a large National Guard base with multiple black helicoptors that fly over head all day and night.

              It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

              by War on Error on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:09:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I want to buy my wife a small rice (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                War on Error

                PRESSURE COOKER. Apparently they are better rice cookers than our $35 panasonic rice cooker.

                I knew a guy in college who grew psychedlic mushrooms and used a PRESSURE COOKER to cook the bulgar wheat he  inoculated with spores. That was 1982. All the psilosiben is gone, as is the PRESSURE COOKER.

              •  my local hardware store (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                War on Error

                used to have PRESSURE COOKERS. I was interested in buying a PRESSURE COOKER for canning foods as well as for cooking. Now I think if I want to buy a PRESSURE COOKER I'll have to buy it on-line.

                (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

                by PJEvans on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:27:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Well, if you're going to serve your dogs (0+ / 0-)

                cooked bones, you have to pressure cook them to avoid all attendant risks (broken teeth, splintering, etc).

                I trust that NSA has cooked dog food experts on staff? Or do they just cross reference pressure cooker purchases with our cookbook (canine and human) purchases?

                © grover

                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:43:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Well ... (7+ / 0-)

            Putting aside the 4th amendment rights (which I personnally believe are the issue) ... I think "they" would say that they have algorithms that can search the data for patterns and connections.  

            However, I'm not convinced they've really EVER been successful in spotting a potential "terrorist" before they've acted.  

            Should they want to look up the data for a single individual or group of individuals, I'm sure they can do that very effectively.  I'm pretty sure anyone who is 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon away from Snowden or Greenwald has already had their data pulled.

            So, to sum it up ... I believe

            - The programs are unconstitutional (and yes, illegal)
            - They are ineffective
            - They are crazy expense  (but heh ... military contractors gotta live too, right?)

            •  Yeah, that searching for patterns stuff (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Says to me that my stuff is being evaluated.

              I think of it this way. You go into the parking lot where you know you parked your car. You're not "seeing" any other cars because you're looking for yours and you're in a rush. You get in and drive away.

              Then a yellow mustang pulls up to you at a light, and you think, that car was just in the parking lot.

              You didn't see it. But you did.

              Now imagine what systems designed to look for stuff (and programmed not to overlook anything) can do.

              And I'm not so concerned about me. My "book store" purchases are things like dog food for animal shelters. That's how exciting I am. But I know people with middle eastern roots and Islamic names.  They're bright red Ferraris and Lamborghinis in that parking lot.

              And as persons (whether or not  citizens) they have Constitutional rights.

              © grover

              So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

              by grover on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:57:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  there is also the abuse of the power (7+ / 0-)


                When you construct a massive surveillance apparatus, history tells us that it will be brought to bear not just on, quote, "the enemy" but on the people who threaten society's power structure. On whoever exists at the political margins, whether it's Martin Luther King Jr. or some Occupy Boston protesters. It's not some Orwellian abstraction. It's America's history --- and America's recent history ---and left unchecked I fear for America 's future.

                Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                by greenbastard on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:01:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's a simple concept really. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  shaharazade, stvnjon, dadadata

                  In dog training, we tell people, you never trust a puppy or dog with more than he has been been proven himself reliable with. So a puppy doesn't get to play freely on the carpet until he proves he won't just piddle right there on the floor. A dog isn't given free reign of the house until he proves he won't get into anything dangerous or destroy stuff. Dogs aren't let off leash at the park until they have proven they will reliably come every single time when called.  

                  It's the same thing with the powerful and the military/intelligence complex in this country.

                  They have proven themselves incredibly unreliable over the years. Truman did it. Kennedy did it. They've all done it.

                  Carter was probably the most honorable of the bunch. But there's not a lot of evidence that the machinations of power didn't continue while he was in office.

                  So why we would trust organizations and people who have proven themselves so untrustworthy over the years is beyond me. This is a system that pees in the middle of the floor, tears up the house, then bolts as soon as you open the front door, biting the neighbor's  kid as it runs down the street out of control.

                   But many folks are saying, yes, but it's a nice dog, it makes me feel safe.

                  ( Meanwhile two Chechen-Americans thugs are planning to break in the back door).

                  This is simply NOT about Snowden nor even President Obama really.

                  The three branches of government are fine with the status quo. The beltway media defends it vociferously.

                  And here we are. And as you say, we will be there in the future...

                  © grover

                  So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                  by grover on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:51:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  But.... are communications crimes? (0+ / 0-)

                Can't we pretty much say anything, well not yell fire in the theater...

                Doesn't the outcome of NSA's searching for the needles in the infinite haystacks still require shoe leather and eyes to see a crime and then catch the criminal.

                As broad as the NSA program is, so is the definition of terrorist.  And this broad definition of terrorist is as big a concern to me as the broad scope of NSA's capabilities.

                It's difficult to be happy knowing so many suffer. We must unite.

                by War on Error on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:02:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  "With its new Utah Data Center, the NSA will... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            at last have the technical capability... (emphasis mine)

   store, and rummage through, all those stolen secrets. The question, of course, is how the agency defines who is, and who is not, “a potential adversary....”

            ...There is still one technology preventing untrammeled government access to private digital data: strong encryption...Breaking into those complex mathematical shells like the AES is one of the key reasons for the construction going on in Bluffdale...

            So the agency had one major ingredient—a massive data storage facility—under way. Meanwhile, across the country in Tennessee, the government was working in utmost secrecy on the other vital element: the most powerful computer the world has ever known...Dubbed the High Productivity Computing Systems program, its goal was to advance computer speed a thousandfold, creating a machine that could execute a quadrillion (1015) operations a second...

            It's probable that the NSA won't be bothering with most of this info, but, as their budget keeps increasing and their technical capabilities and employees (feds and especially contractors) keep increasing, the troubling thing is that even though they probably won't--at some point, they probably could.  

            ...By 2010, the overall intelligence budget had grown by 250 percent since 2000. Nowhere was the growth larger than at the NSA. The budget there doubled, as did the physical infrastructure...

            Never before have so many U.S. intelligence workers been hired so quickly, or been given access to secret government information...

      •  So if our business (0+ / 0-)

        has it's own e-mail that runs off our web site providers are we out of the cloud? Our business is all nothing but digital data services.  Just curious as we have always kept our business e-mails with clients separate from our email accounts on AOL or Yahoo. This cloud stuff is way beyond my pay grade or comprehension.

        •  Well, they will just get the traffic from (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          the senders and receivers outside your company...or by sniffing traffic from your ISP...and it they want stuff from you badly enough, they will simply come and get it.

          "Nothing happens unless first a dream. " ~ Carl Sandburg

          by davewill on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:32:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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