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  •  We HAVE to make Alt-E cheaper than fossil fuels (8+ / 0-)

    The only way to keep fossil fuels in the ground is to make ALT-E cheaper than fossil fuels.  It's completely delusional to think we can protest enough to get a public policy, in China, Russia, and even the U.S. that will keep fossil fuels in the ground while telling people they'll have to lower their standard of living.

    If I could trade the XL pipeline for a 10 year commitment for a 40% solar tax credit, a reversal of fossil fuel tax subsidies,  and a $5B increase in battery research, I'd do it in a second.

    •  Thomas Friedman thought this too. (1+ / 0-)
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      He even said so, in "Hot, Flat, and Crowded."  It's a natural place to go, if you think of the capitalist system as eternal and unchanging.

      The alternative, of course, is to imagine that we get off of capitalism, and take control over our destinies rather than being enslaved to that which is cheapest.

      So by the time "alternative energy" becomes cheaper than oil, coal, natural gas, kerogen, tar sands and whatev, it'll be hot enough to cook us rare, medium rare, or well done?

      "It's not my fault reality is marxist." - Che Guevara

      by Cassiodorus on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 10:11:24 AM PDT

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    •  But 'making it cheaper' ... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      divineorder, Calamity Jean, deep info

      ... is something that Big Oil and Big Coal are actively fighting.

      "Reduced standard of living" is a Big Oil and Big Coal red herring ~ the reduction in standard of living that they are concerned with is the risk of a reduced standard of living for Big Oil and Big Coal executives.

      After all, its not the up front financial costs that determine the standard of living impact, its the full economic cost.

      And in many cases its already cheaper, with cost shifting of external costs and biased grid access regimes required to flip an economic cost advantage for sustainable, renewable energy to a rigged financial cost disadvantage.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 11:19:49 AM PDT

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    •  I Could Almost Buy Into That (1+ / 0-)
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      I've looked at solar and to be honest it is really, really expensive. I realize it is an investment, but I don't know how many hippie liberals like myself have that much money laying around to spend.

      •  Rooftop solar has a reasonable payback period (3+ / 0-)
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        Calamity Jean, cotterperson, Lawrence

        You should be able to get a lease from an installer so that you don't have to front the cost.

        Solar thermal power plants are nearing grid parity.

        The notion that solar is too expensive (and will always remain so) is Right wing carbon fuel propaganda.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:27:35 PM PDT

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        •  What's "right wing propaganda" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          is the idea that we have to wait for "price signals" before getting off of fossil fuels.  That was my point -- if we wait for "price signals" before making the jump, we're toast.

          There is NOTHING "right wing" about refusing to buy a product.

          "It's not my fault reality is marxist." - Che Guevara

          by Cassiodorus on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:22:18 AM PDT

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      •  Not sure where you are at webranding; but, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I recently did a project w/a family member in Florida who which showed that by going solar, you can pay off a 30 year mortgage in less than 15 years simply by going solar to cut your energy bill in half.  It was a conservative estimate.  Some states have leasing plans that allow you to do so for free (no money down), like CA.

        I was shocked because when we looked at doing this 8 years ago, they system for our home would have been about $29K.  Now, the average home is about $8-$12K installed with significant tax credits to boot.

        Just saying, you might want to take another look ...

      •  Do a lease-to-own program... (1+ / 0-)
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        There are a couple where you pay to the utility company what you would have paid in utility bills without the solar install, until it's paid off, and then it's yours.  That's a guaranteed win.

        There are others which are more traditional leases, so on those you have to work out a spreadsheet yourself on whether you're getting a good deal.

    •  make fossil fuel unprofitable (3+ / 0-)

      the only way to get the oil co's out of the oil biz. Thus the only way  to keep the poison locked up.

      Until there's no money in it, the oil co's will continue to extract and sell. There will always be buyers.

      Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

      by kamarvt on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 03:16:18 PM PDT

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      •  Oil is so damned useful that it will probably be (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, sreeizzle2012

        the last fossil fuel to stop being produced.  Coal needs to be first as it is the most climate-damaging and high polluting.  Natural gas will taper off slowly.  Petroleum will always be needed for lubricants if nothing else.

        Renewable energy brings national global security.     

        by Calamity Jean on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 04:08:03 PM PDT

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        •  Steel. Unless the oil companies... (0+ / 0-)

          ...find a way to wring more "stuff" out of petroleum coke, you'll need coal to make steel, which is used to make parts for wind turbines and solar mounts.

          Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

          by JeffW on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 04:48:51 PM PDT

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          •  why not nukes ? :) (0+ / 0-)

            Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

            by kamarvt on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 05:38:33 AM PDT

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            •  "Metalurgical coal" is a chemical reactant (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JeffW, lehman scott

              in the steel-making process.  You're right, Jeff, I forgot about that.  

              Nukes are too freaking expensive and take too long to build to be a practical replacement for fossil fuels.  Solar is cheaper than nukes even in cloudy England.  Wind is cheaper than coal if the coal-burning power plants need to be built.  Coal is the cheapest source of electricity only if it's burned in existing plants that have already paid off their construction loans.  

              Renewable energy brings national global security.     

              by Calamity Jean on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:04:23 PM PDT

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