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View Diary: Grayson: "There’s no probable cause here." Talking to Mom is NOT a Terrorist Act (134 comments)

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  •  Oh? (4+ / 0-)
    [They] are only doing what the FISA subpoenas tell them to do.
    Corporations have actually been collecting and selling data to the government quite voluntarily -- without any FISA involvement -- and they actively trade information on us with the government. Ie: the government has certain information on us the corporations would like to have, and the corporations have information the government would like. Quid pro quo, eh? Backscratching all around.

    The FISA orders are CYA. They are the means by which the corporations maintain their legal immunity for handing over the information.

    They were doing it quite voluntarily before FISA court got involved, remember. Well, except for QWEST. Has their former CEO been released from Federal custody yet? I think not. And what of Qwest itself? Gone, isn't it?

    No, corporations are not the innocents in all this, far from it.

    Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

    by felix19 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 11:13:29 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  not innocents (0+ / 0-)

      but bit players.

      Google, Facebook etc,

      either have to sell ads, or else bill us for services rendered.


      most so far, would choose the annoying ads.

      •  Kind of hard to reconcile (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit

        the concept of "bit players" in this drama with corporate sector actors, when essentially the entire architecture of surveillance is provided by the corporations, at least 70% of the NSA's budget goes to pay the corporate sector for their myriad services to the Surveillance State, and the corps were only too happy to provide info to the Agency(s) voluntarily -- which they still do in many cases -- before their asses were covered by immunity.

        The corps are fully engaged in the surveillance process at every step of the way, and in the case of the NSA are the active on-the-ground administrators of said surveillance.

        Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

        by felix19 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 11:53:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  it should also be noted that the FISA requests are (4+ / 0-)

      apparently only a small portion of the total requests, and that the majority of requests come in the form of "National Security Letters", which are not overseen by any judge and do not require any warrant or court order.

    •  I agree FISA orders are CYA; (0+ / 0-)

      and I don't think anybody here is saying that the corportions (TELCOMS?) are 'innocent'.  But can you provide any links  in support of these statements:

      Corporations have actually been collecting and selling data to the government quite voluntarily -- without any FISA involvement -- and they actively trade information on us with the government
      and
      the government has certain information on us the corporations would like to have, and the corporations have information the government would like..
      I would agree that online marketing companies gather far too much data about us.  But if you have documents you can link to that clearly demonstrate a seller/buyer relationship between those companies and government agencies, I'd like to read it.

      And why would NSA have to buy data when they're already sucking  up all the data from the Telcoms' fiber-optic lines?

      •  Try these to start (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit, deep info

        Americans' Fickle Stance on Data Mining and Surveillance

        U.S. Agencies Said to Swap Data With Thousands of Firms

        There's much more, but those will give you a hint of how pervasive -- and invasive -- so much data collection and data mining on all of us really is. The government and corporations work tirelessly hand in hand to acquire, analyze and utilize an increasingly varied and complete system of information on all of us.

        The government has been buying all kinds of information on you and me from its corporate partners for decades. Most Departments, agencies and bureaus have a wide array of accessible data bases maintained by the private sector, the use of which is charged to the government. State and local police and other agencies and departments have access to -- and pay for -- much the same information data bases.

        The NSA is only a part of the surveillance apparatus in place, and we've been endlessly told it is not supposed to be used for domestic surveillance. Nor is the CIA. But circumstances change, don't they? What with globalization and all, how can these agencies ever know when some tidbit of information about you or me leads to some foreign plot overseas unless they take a look-see?

        Do you believe that corporate partners aren't interested as well? Do you think they only want to sell you something?

        Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

        by felix19 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 05:27:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll put them on my reading list. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jamess

          But please give me a break.  I re-read my comment and I think It was pretty clear that I was asking for more info on 'corporations' buying/selling personal info to/from NSA.

          I'm aware from my reading that of course NSA has 'corporate partners' which at my level of understanding I take to be software/hardware firms and contractors like Booz Allen.  I've read a fair bit about data collection by marketing-related firms, and I'm very uncomfortable with what they do.  I have not, as yet, run across anything showing that those kinds of data-collection companies buying/selling to/from NSA (although, in the back of my mind, I worried about it before the NSA revelations struck).  If that buying/selling is happening, I want to read about it, so I wrote my comment.

          Maybe it's because I'm getting tired, but your questions felt like a bit of an attack:

          Do you believe that corporate partners aren't interested as well? Do you think they only want to sell you something?
          I don't think I was putting forward any belief or opinion in my comment.  I'm sure that NSA 'corporate partners' are trading info with NSA -- that's why they're 'corporate partners.  What I don't know yet is whether NSA's corporate partners' are the same people 'who want to sell me something'.  When I see reliable information that the mercantile data-collctors are in fact trading data, then I can begin to form an opinion.

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