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View Diary: The US is Not Going to Win the War on Edward Snowden (310 comments)

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  •  Okay, so what could be POSSIBLY.... (10+ / 0-)

    ...be tried for in a Hong Kong court? He committed no offense against China. Quite the opposite -- he purportedly exposed a program that was, in part, AIMED at China. He is regarded as a folk hero in Hong Kong. He gets his own NEON SIGN extolling his virtues as someone that should be defended.

    The only entity that could prosecute Snowden is the US Government. Prosecuting him will require extradition.  It is true that China may not wish to actively oppose a US extradition, but think of those to whom WE have given some form of shelter.

    The Chinese may easily point to that.

    We have not fully resolved the connection between Snowden and China. To suggest that there may be one is not the sign of being low on information. We will be low on information if we do NOT investigate that --- something you can guarantee the US is actively doing at this very moment.

    He can't be tried in Hong Kong, as he wishes quite bizarrely, and it is by no means certain that his extradition won't be blocked.

    Hong Kong is, for better or worse, in CHINA.  As for autonomy. China has demonstrated a recent propensity for blowing past borders and foreign delicacies, in Vietnam, the Philippines, all over the South China sea and, through its wicked stepson, North Korea,.

    To investigate Snowden's links, if any, to China, is prudent. To suggest in a blanket way that there is none is folly.

    Recall that the Chinese President was here to be lectured by Obama on cyberspying when the story broke.

    Serendipitous timing for China? I would say so, at the very least.

    We are not done investigating here.

    If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

    by Bensdad on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:27:58 AM PDT

    •  No trial in Hong Kong (13+ / 0-)

      He has not broken any Hong Kong laws.

      What is possible to happen next:

      (a) USA requests extradition before his visitor visa expires, fight extradition in HK courts.

      (b) USA waits until his visa expires to see what happens, Snowden applies for a visa extension and gets it (likely)

      (c) In any case: China stands on the sidelines taking notes and nodding head left and right.

      400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

      by koNko on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 03:44:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think US intelligence is not being forthcoming. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NotGeorgeWill, Bensdad

      They know more about Snowden's relations with China than they're letting on, probably because they're still investigating exactly when and where he became friends with the Chinese and who else may be involved.

      •  In my world it is crystal clear (12+ / 0-)

        ...that Snowden has absolutely nothing that would be of interest to China or any other country. There is nothing really strategic about it.

        His whistleblowing message is strictly for ordinary people. And, in the end, Americans will probably fully submit to a complete loss of privacy, while the government gathers all sorts of information that could potentially ruin their private and public lives.

        I have no opinion whether they should submit to complete domestic surveillance or not, given the decades of revenge attacks that will be heaped upon them for what they have done in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Libya, and elsewhere. If Americans want to stay as safe as possible, they should probably just surrender to the NSA.



        Denial is a drug.

        by Pluto on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:04:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wait a minute- so you know (2+ / 0-)

          what Snowden has? He claims he gave the Chinese intel on hacking programs against them. Are you saying they wouldn't be interested in that intel?

          •  Where does he claim this, exactly? (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mkor7, corvo, 3goldens, CroneWit, JVolvo, Pluto
            He claims he gave the Chinese intel on hacking programs against them.
            I keep seeing variations of this same sentence being thrown around, and not once have any of its' pushers provided anything resembling a cite to demonstrate it says what THEY have extrapolated it to say in a given comment.

            "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

            by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:26:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  How did I know you were talking about (10+ / 0-)

                this sentence:

                “We hack network backbones — like huge Internet routers, basically — that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,”
                That's hysterically funny, that you or Politico or anyone else really believe that's Snowden, "sharing intel".  

                "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:43:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Actually more about this: (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Don midwest, CroneWit, Bensdad

                  "The Post said Snowden provided documents, which the paper described as "unverified," that he said showed U.S. cyber operations targeting a Hong Kong university, public officials and students in the Chinese city. The paper said the documents also indicate hacking attacks targeting mainland Chinese targets, but did not reveal information about Chinese military systems."

                  from the abc link about the China Post interview

                  •  ABC says the Post said?? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    corvo, Shotput8, JVolvo

                    Does The Post actually say that?

                    "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                    by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:48:02 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You decide: (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      middleagedhousewife

                      http://www.scmp.com/...

                      I don;t know how else you interpret "documents seen by the Post".

                      •  Oh, you mean those unverified ones? (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        corvo, Shotput8, Pluto, JVolvo

                        The ones they said they saw?

                        Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.
                        I thought all that was "old news"?

                        And of course, there is this:

                        The detailed records - which cannot be independently verified - show specific dates and the IP addresses of computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland hacked by the National Security Agency over a four-year period.

                        They also include information indicating whether an attack on a computer was ongoing or had been completed, along with an amount of additional operational information.

                        The small sample data suggests secret and illegal NSA attacks on Hong Kong computers had a success rate of more than 75 per cent, according to the documents. The information only pertains to attacks on civilian computers with no reference to Chinese military operations, Snowden said.

                        "I don't know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only that using technical exploits to gain unauthorised access to civilian machines is a violation of law. It's ethically dubious," Snowden said in the interview on Wednesday.

                        Carry on, then, with your contention that this guy compromised national security. Your own source says you're essentially full of shit in one place, and in another, doesn't say at all what you keep pretending it says.

                        "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                        by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:15:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Of course they can't be verified- (0+ / 0-)

                          who's gonna verify them, the US?
                          And I never said beans about military operations, just that he gave them info on hacking operations. Which he did:

                          "Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.

                          •  Uh-huh (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Rick Aucoin, JVolvo

                            Claiming that Snowden "gave them intel" insinuates it's military in nature.

                            Giving Secrets To The Big Bad Commies!

                            Word games! I can play them too!  

                            Meanwhile, as you went on to aptly demonstrate, he was talking all about civilians.

                            You know, like what a lot of Verizon customers are...

                            “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.

                            Ooops! Hey, thanks for the quote! That was pretty helpful, considering he's absolutely right...

                            "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                            by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:50:43 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Everybody hacks everybody (0+ / 0-)

                            and everybody (including the Chinese) denies that they're hacking.
                            If you want to believe the Chinese don't hack civilians or civilian institutions, we'll have to disagree.
                            The possibility of a cyber attack on the civilian infrastructure that runs the country is real, and everybody wants an edge. I hope it never happens but if it ever does, I prefer that we have the edge.

                          •  Militarily, yes (0+ / 0-)

                            And nobody said this, so I don't know what you're on about here:

                            If you want to believe the Chinese don't hack civilians or civilian institutions, we'll have to disagree.
                            Other than "It might look good in print to some uninformed soul that just happens to sit here and read all these comments". But in case they were wondering, it's just another pile of word salad...
                            The possibility of a cyber attack on the civilian infrastructure that runs the country is real, and everybody wants an edge.
                            LOL! If only that's what we were talking about. But hey, you just keep slinging the patented fearmongering  bullshit. If you're lucky, maybe some of it will actually stick...

                            "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                            by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:32:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I gotta leave for an appointment, but (0+ / 0-)

                            I'll rephrase as a question:
                            Do you believe the Chinese hack civilians or civilian institutions?

                            I don't think recognizing the existence and possible dangers  of cyber hacking is fearmongering bullshit.

                            Personally I think both China and the US might agree that an attack on infrastructure is more likely to come from a loose cannon cowboy civilian hacker- or possibly a corporation with something to gain- than from either government.
                            It makes sense to me that they would monitor likely hackers.
                            YMMV.

                          •  It doesn't matter what I beelieve the Chinese do (0+ / 0-)

                            because the Chinese aren't the subject here, except to the extent that those of you determined  to smear this guy for outing something your government shouldn't have been doing want it to be.

                            And now, so very badly do you want this man to be smeared, now he's a hacker, too?  

                            It makes sense to me that they would monitor likely hackers.

                            The Commies are coming! Hide all the women and children!
                            Yes, m'dear, it is fearmongering bullshit, no matter how much you protest otherwise.  
                             

                            "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                            by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:07:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh ffs. No, he's not a hacker. (0+ / 0-)

                            There are hackers all over the world, but he's not one and I didn't say he was. He appears to have had authority to access  information.

                            The Chinese became the subject here, in this thread, when someone said Snowden had nothing to offer them and they wouldn't be interested anyway. Which is not the case.

                            And if you'll notice, I made it pretty clear that both China and the US have valid reasons to monitor potential hackers among the civilian and corporate population. But I'm not Switzerland. I'm not neutral. I want us to have the edge on this. Sue me.

                            We have different opinions about the China part of this, but not so different about the overall issue. You believe that objecting to Snowden giving China info is smearing him. He did it. I don't like that he did it but that's not a smear, it's an opinion. And we'll never agree about that so this has become utterly pointless. We can both find better ways to spend our time.

          •  Sounds like he brought an insurance policy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zett, CroneWit

            To encourage mainland China to lean towards a hands-off a role in his extradition process.

          •  Snowden is on the civilian side. (0+ / 0-)

            That's the information he has.

            It was Foreign Policy magazine that confirmed for China that they were under constant cyber-attack by the US.

            An article in an influential political magazine has confirmed the Beijing government's long-held allegation that the US has for years been involved in cyber-espionage against China.

            Published in Foreign Policy magazine and called "Inside the NSA's Ultra Secret Hacking Group", the story by Mathew Aid lifts the lid on the US's covert cyber operations in China. The US continually accuses China of cybercrime. However, senior Beijing officials accuse the US government of hypocrisy and allege Washington is also actively engaged in cyber-espionage.

            "The Chinese government's allegations are essentially correct," the article reveals. "According to a number of confidential sources, a highly secretive unit of the National Security Agency (NSA), the US government's huge electronic eavesdropping organisation, called the Office of Tailored Access Operations, or TAO, has successfully penetrated Chinese computer and telecommunications systems for almost 15 years, generating some of the best and most reliable intelligence information about what is going on inside China."

            Let's see if that is treason or merely propaganda bullshit charges directed against Snowden -- by watching for arrests today at that magazine headquarters.

            Don't hold your breath.



            Denial is a drug.

            by Pluto on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:54:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Ben, you forgot the 3 exclamation marks (!!!) (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blicero, shaharazade, corvo, fuzzyguy, JVolvo

      when you mentioned "CHINA".  Coulda emboldened it, too, for bigger impact.

      duly noted

      don't always believe what you think

      by claude on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 05:55:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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