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View Diary: The US is Not Going to Win the War on Edward Snowden (310 comments)

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  •  I think you are missing what you are writing (5+ / 0-)

    "The real authoritarians are the ones who think that they can decide on their own what the law is entirely outside of the electoral process."

    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

    by greenbastard on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:24:46 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not really . . . (0+ / 0-)

      You may disagree with the policy, but multiple Congresses and two presidents did not act outside of the electoral process -- they were elected.

      Additionally, this is not a case of a unitary exec doing these things without seeking legal sanction from Congress.  Aspects of these issues have been litigated as well.  This is a system of checks and balances at work.  In the end, even a legally sanctioned program might change through the electoral process.

      Snowden was not an elected representative, he has no training in the law.  He unilaterally decided he didn't like the program, went public, and then fled the country.

      •  you're pretending these people were elected (6+ / 0-)

        with these programs, and sleazy justifications, as a platform. that is what you are missing.

        him fleeing the country doesn't bug me either, as this administration has shown an unprecedented attack on whistleblowers.

        and, as has been stated many times before:

        When you construct a massive surveillance apparatus, history tells us that it will be brought to bear not just on, quote, "the enemy" but on the people who threaten society's power structure. On whoever exists at the political margins, whether it's Martin Luther King Jr. or some Occupy Boston protesters. It's not some Orwellian abstraction. It's America's history --- and America's recent history ---and left unchecked I fear for America 's future.

        http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/...

        why you'd defend such, is all I don't understand

        Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

        by greenbastard on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:41:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We have an electoral system and a representative (0+ / 0-)

          system.

          Did many politicians campaign on this single issue?

          No.

          Once elected, I believe it was even Rep. Eillison who said that members of Congress receiving private briefings without staff or technical knowledge about what they are being asked to sign-off on.  This is a problem.

          Still, our Constitutional system doesn't say a law is only legally valid if a politician campaigns on on the law, and the law that passes substantially resembles the law that people voted on during the election.

          We have a representative democracy with delegated power and authority, not a direct democracy.

          If two presidents from two different political parties, and multiple Congresses sign off on the law, the legislation will tend to have legal legitimacy.

          I think all of these worries about potential abuses are valid.  I just don't think that the way to get a debate on these issues is to have a leaker go public with information and then run to Hong Kong.  I think if he stays in the U.S., he has more credibility.

          •  you're no leads us back to your other statement (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lost and Found, LeftOverAmerica

            "The real authoritarians are the ones who think that they can decide on their own what the law is entirely outside of the electoral process."

            Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

            by greenbastard on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:53:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Delegated authority, as is found in . . . (0+ / 0-)

              a representative democracy is not a synonym for "authoritarian rule".

              I think of an authoritarian as a guy like Assange who, in his own dealings, forces people working with him to sign NDAs exposing them to millions of dollars of liability (assuming that the NDA would be legally enforceable in the first place), directing the organization to hack the Swedes after he was hit with a series of charges, and then taking refuge in the embassy of a country with a dismal record on press freedoms.  It's a mindset which doesn't entail compromise, and doesn't need elections.

              You can disagree with the policy that we have, but it was put into place through a representative system, not outside of it.

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