Skip to main content

View Diary: President Obama's "Civil Liberties Protection Officers" and other things you won't hear about here (73 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  the problem with such "oversight" is that it (15+ / 0-)

    simply never works.

    The NSA was subject to "oversight" back in the 60's too, to insure that it wouldn't do anything illegal like spy on American citizens, or intercept communications without a warrant.  So were the FBI and CIA.

    And what happened?  All three of those agencies either captured their oversight, or evaded/avoided it, and did precisely what they were not supposed to do--spy on American citizens and intercept their communications without a warrant. The only limiting factor was the physical capability to do what they wanted to do.

    And most of that happened under Democratic Administrations.

    The whole sordid story is spelled out in excruciating detail in the Church Committee Reports.

    For all those who want to assert that the NSA will never ever ever overstep its authority or do things it is legally banned from doing because the Dems are good guys and would never allow that---I await an explanation of why that has already happened before, and why you think this time will be any different than the last time.

    I'm all ears.

    •  Lenny Flank, are you ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... suggesting that criminals sometimes commit crimes? That humans make mistakes? Welcome to Earth! ; )

      What would've happened if this type of data processing had been available before 9/11? Mighta, coulda saved two wars.

      I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

      by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:16:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what woulda happened? (8+ / 0-)

        The same thing that happened in the 1960's---the NSA would have spied illegally on everyone that it had the capability to---and then gotten caught and slapped down for it.

        What would've happened if this type of data processing had been available before 9/11? Mighta, coulda saved two wars.
        Nonsense.  PNAC and the Goppers were already calling for a war on Iraq wayyyy back in 1995, before most Americans ever even heard of "Osama Bin Laden".

        PS--many of the 9-11 hijackers were ALREADY on the security radar before 9-11.

        But even if you are correct and we can be totally 100% "safe" against the handful of terrorist attacks that occur in the US each decade (and of course we can't)-----the price is not worth it.  We can also "be safe" from the terrists oh noez !!! if we implant a GPS chip in the skull of everyone who enters US borders so we can track everyone everywhere in real time. That price would be too high as well. I am not willing to sacrifice democracy or become a national-security surveillance state in exchange for the mere illusion of safety (since even your much-vaunted programs will not prevent all terrorist attacks).

        But then, the terrists oh noez simply don't scare me as much as they apparently scare you.  My chances of dying in a terrorist attack are very much lower than of dying from a bee sting or falling in my bathtub or choking on a grape. So I don't pee my pants in terror over it. I'm simply not terrified. (shrug)

      •  ps--I notice you didn't answer my question, so I (6+ / 0-)

        will ask again:

        For all those who want to assert that the NSA will never ever ever overstep its authority or do things it is legally banned from doing because the Dems are good guys and would never allow that---I await an explanation of why that has already happened before, and why you think this time will be any different than the last time.

        From your lack of answer, I can only conclude that (1) there is NOTHING that prevents it from being any different than the last time, and (2) you're fine with that because "the terrists oh noez !!!!".  Yes?

        You sure do scare easily. I don't. On the list of "things that effect my life", "terrism oh noez !!!" ranks pretty near the bottom, right near "fatal train crashes" and "being killed by a falling tree branch".

        (shrug)

        •  Yes, criminals can steal ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... from the government, but I would think the prison sentence would serve as some deterent. Moreover, a keyboard audit, as well as a Civil Liberties Protections Officer, and you have done everything possible to limit any damage.

          As for who is scared of what, I can actually point to deaths caused by terrorism, and even wars caused by terrorism that led to further deaths caused by terrorism.

          You are scared of what Hollywood screenwriters would call World War QWERTY. Again, see my green shirt/green hat analogy below.  

          I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

          by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:05:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What prison sentence? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            quill, radmul, Joieau
            criminals can steal from the government, but I would think the prison sentence would serve as some deterrent.
            See: Wall Street, Banks Too Big To Fail

            "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

            by lunachickie on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:11:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  and you STILL have not answered my question (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kbman
            As for who is scared of what, I can actually point to deaths caused by terrorism, and even wars caused by terrorism that led to further deaths caused by terrorism.
            On the other hand, the War on Terro has kilkled more Americans than the terrorists did.

            Kinda counter-productive, dontcha think?

            But let's assume for a moment that you are correct, that the terrists will kill us all oh noez !!!! and we have to absolutely stop them.

            How does the massive "War on Terror" help us do that?

            Other countries have had terrorist problems too--far more extensive than ours.  Britain had the IRA; Spain had the ETA; Italy had the Red Brigades.  Those countries dealt with their terrorists in the best way possible----they arrested them, tried them in ordinary criminal courts, and jailed them. They didn't invade any countries, they didn't shred their civil liberties, they didn't surveil their population. And now all of those terrorist groups are gone.

            We, on the other hand, peed our pants, set our hair on fire, dismantled the rule of law and became a military national-security state----and even after the longest wars in American history the terrorists are still around.

            So your hair-on-fire programs not only are wasteful, expensive, and corrosive of civil liberties and democracy--they don't even work.  

      •  9/11 Hijackers were already Under NSA Surveillance (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        quill, radmul

        everything that was needed to be known was already known.  conflicts within the CIA and a president too stupid to heed the warnings were the problem. see http://www.dailykos.com/...

        •  I'm glad you're so up-to-speed ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... on the program and process as well as the inner-workings of the NSA that you have that all figured out.

          If, on the other hand, actual data was picked up so that the government knew to wiretap the 9/11 hijackers because they had their phone numbers and other information, including targets and plans, they would've been met in the airports by FBI and CIA or at their flight training courses, then we at least do not have Afghanistan, and Iran becomes a much more difficult sell. (Although I agree with you that Junior was selling it to make up for Senior's embarrassment.)

          Moreover, I think many in this thred are being a little xeno-myopic in that terrorists don't only attack the United States. What could be stopped in the future and what has been stopped because the terrorists are now dead? And not just in America. Will the NSA program have a chilling effect on terrorism?

          I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

          by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:51:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site