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View Diary: We Progressives Are Making a Mistake by Supporting the Traitor Snowden (260 comments)

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  •  Tortmaster's right. (6+ / 0-)

    Snowden didn't uncover one instance of abuse. He uncovered something we already knew. If the truth matters to you, then that should matter to you.

    •  Not my reply, I replied to the opener (4+ / 0-)

      I disagree he didn't uncover anything, we suspected but the devil is in the details..

      "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

      by LaFeminista on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:26:27 AM PDT

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      •  That's interesting. (8+ / 0-)
        I disagree he didn't uncover anything, we suspected but the devil is in the details..
        What abuses did he uncover? The reason I ask is because the justification for Snowden's actions hinges on whether or not he's uncovered abuse.

        In my mind, you have to clear a very high bar in order to justify leaking national security secrets. If he uncovered abuse, then I think his actions are justified; but if not, then his actions effectively nullified the will of the people that the leaked information remain secret.

        I don't think it's justifiable to leak information simply because you don't like the fact that it's secret. Not if a freely elected government has determined that it should remain secret.

        •  I think it is justifiable when it is unjustifiable (5+ / 0-)

          oh and don't scare me with the "terrorists are coming" bullshit.

          The abuse is one of abuse of power.

          "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

          by LaFeminista on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:37:34 AM PDT

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          •  PS have a read of this article (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Victor Ward

            "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

            by LaFeminista on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:39:04 AM PDT

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            •  I've read it. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Beetwasher, Deep Texan

              I read all the new revelations when they come out.

              •  so there are revelations (0+ / 0-)

                that you didn't know before.

                "Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing." Arundhati Roy

                by LaFeminista on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:01:52 AM PDT

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                •  That, in and of itself, does not matter. (0+ / 0-)

                  What matters is whether or not the revelations are of government abuse. Here's the news: every country reserves the right to spy on foreign nationals, just as every country reserves for itself the right to make war to preserve its sovereignty. Obviously war is not nice, and spying is not nice, but all is fair in love and war.

                  I don't see how the fact that the British spied on foreign diplomats is a violation of the privacy rights of British citizens. I don't see how that's abusive at all.

                  I'm sure we spy on foreign diplomats. I'm sure our diplomats are spied on. This is what everybody with these kinds of capabilities does. Doesn't bother me at all.

                  •  We spend billions on gathering up this information (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Superskepticalman

                    What real value does it have beyond fattening the bottom line of a corporate welfare spook store?

                    I think Snowdon has given us an opportunity to see where a vast sum of tax dollars go and what we get for the money. And he did this from the corporate offices of Booz Allen not Foggy Bottom or an NSA building.

                    We should be asking as many question of this corporation as we are of our government. And if we do I bet we'll find its easier to get answers from the feds than a corporate ticks.

                    •  There is no doubt that this information (0+ / 0-)

                      has value. Ask yourself why the NSA would spend billions. What incentive would they have to spend that much money? I promise you they're not spending that money just to spy on your Facebook posts.

                      How, for example, do you suppose they know whether and how North Korea is attempting to obtain fissile material? Do you think they know that by asking North Korean diplomats?! Is that what they're supposed to do because spying isn't nice?

                      •  Of course some information will have value. And (0+ / 0-)

                        maybe casting such a wide net is a great way to hide legitimate necessary intelligence activities, but probably not. And nobody found out about North Korea's efforts to obtain fissile material by digging thru millions of unrelated phone records of Americans. Are they looking for N. Korean spooks by checking my Aunts calls in rural Ohio? I suspect private contractors are selling a pound of dirt with an ounce gold in it, for the price of a pound of gold. And the NSA buys it because lobbyists for BAW and other private spook shops own a Congressmen or two.

                        If combing the internet and call records caught terrorists before they act, the Boston bombing would never have happened. Those murderous clowns were flagged by the Russians, interviewed by the FBI, visited bomb making and jihadist sites, and phoned into and traveled to a region of the world that is crawling with radical Islamists. This should have been PRISM's shining moment, but it looks like the NSA's snoops at Booz Allen were  as shocked as the rest of us when the bombs went off.

                        Corporate spook stores are no more reliable than any other corporation on the military industrial welfare train. And we know they're stealing from us because, well their corporations.

                        It is hard enough to trust any government with sweeping secret powers, but we cannot ever trust corporations with the rights of our citizens when we can't sunshine them.

                         

                        •  How do you know no one found about (0+ / 0-)

                          about North Korea's attempts to gain fissile material with phone metadata from American networks?

                          Why do you think that? Do you think that North Korean diplomats never call anyone in the US? North Korean intelligence operatives? Other agents trying to procure material on their behalf? Do you believe that only Americans make phone calls on US cellular networks?

                          The Internet and other telecommunications networks facilitate probably something on the order of trillions of transactions per second. In an age of loose nukes, terrorism, drug trafficking, sex trafficking, bank fraud and espionage (to name just a few of the kinds of criminal activity that's accelerated by the Internet), why on earth should we not want to avail ourselves of this capability? Because it's not nice?

                          I'm sorry, but there is a clear and compelling reason for this capability. I don't believe it should be justified in secret, and I really hope Obama declassifies the FISA court brief justifying metadata collection (as he's said to be contemplating), but anyone who thinks we don't need to use this data to track child predators, for example, because they're butthurt about their phone logs being looked at? (Remember, the FBI uses this data too.) I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with that.

                          We allow our government to control all kinds of dangerous toys that can be abused. I don't see why surveillance within a robust legal framework of protections isn't a net benefit.

                          •  Well, fou, lets see what is revealed in the coming (0+ / 0-)

                            weeks. I don't think we shouldn't spy or keep up with criminals using tech innovation to steal. I don't think we should be paying private contractors to do it. Nor do I think they should be quartermasters to our military or running our national forests.

                            I strongly suspect we are buying lots of worthless shit from  private contractor spook stores. Why would privatized spying be any more efficient or cost effective than any other privatized activity?

                            Whatever else Snowdon has done, he has started a conversation about not just what information is collected on us in secret, but who is doing it and what we are paying for it.

                            And if N. Korean agents are using an American phone network to buy nuke starts of course our spies should be listening in. But who is doing listening, what is done with innocent citizens data, and if it is done by private contractors give us a look at the contract. We are making Booz Allen a fortune 500 hundred company with our tax dollars. I want them to show us records that prove the value of what we're buying from them.

                          •  You're certainly right about getting fleeced (0+ / 0-)

                            by contractors. I was livid when members of Congress claimed not to know the details of a program they authorized. And then these assholes are running around asking "why do these lowly contractors have access? How on earth did that happen?"

                            How did that happen?! Because the lot of you are fucking whores whose job it is to keep the NSA and companies like Booz on the tit!! That's how it fucking happened!

                          •  Agreed, privatizing our intel is very no good. (0+ / 0-)
                      •  LOL!!! You have a good imagination. (0+ / 0-)

                        But I much more strongly suspect reality will follow its sum-of-histories trajectory instead, like it always does. The DoD spends billions because it's literally flooded with billions to spend, and they've got to go somewhere. Same reason DoD spends billions on weapons systems they don't want or need, and gets to play Trillion Dollar War in multiple theaters both domestic and foreign in its role as protector of the Overlords.

                        Surely you don't believe the reason we spend more on our DoD (which owns and operates the NSA, remember) than the rest of the world put together is because we have more to fear from terrorists than anybody else in the world.

          •  I said nothing about terrorism. (5+ / 0-)

            I spoke of our laws. They matter. A lot. As does the fact that terrorism is hardly the only reason this information is gathered.

            The abuse is one of abuse of power.
            Abuse of which power? What law? What statute? No seriously. It matters when you make these claims that they're not just an empty fuck you. Otherwise, not only will nothing change, shit'll go backwards. His leaks have already guaranteed that the NSA will now be less transparent, so if we're just sitting here saying laws should be broken for no compelling legal reason, that will eventually work against the interests of transparency.
      •  Statistically (3+ / 0-)

        Since we are dealing with mercenary spies and not government employees the information our adversaries want has already been bought and sold. I'm also presuming Snowden is aware of those real security breaches and decided secrecy was not keeping anyone safe except for those that are traitors.

        •  Yeah (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Horace Boothroyd III

          if Booz Allen Hamilton contracted this service to China, they wouldn't be able to object.  But if it's one guy, they're all over him.

          What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

          by happymisanthropy on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:54:32 AM PDT

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    •  abuse can be known (3+ / 0-)

      and still be abuse. although some still deny that what he revealed is even true.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:40:22 AM PDT

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    •  Chronic domestic spying is not abuse. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lost and Found

      The true believer is strong in that one.

      "There's a conceptual zone within which the romanticized historical past and the immanentizing historical future converge in a swamp of misapprehension and misstep. It's called 'the present'." - David Beige

      by Superskepticalman on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 12:21:11 PM PDT

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