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View Diary: We Progressives Are Making a Mistake by Supporting the Traitor Snowden (260 comments)

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  •  You are a model citizen. (7+ / 0-)

    In an Orwell novel.

    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

    by nailbender on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:34:01 AM PDT

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    •  Ad hominems... (0+ / 0-)

      are an indication of a lack of argument.

    •  Why go there? (0+ / 0-)

      I mean, seriously.  Asserting that the infrastructure for surveillance is in place and that we should work to ensure more oversight is Orwellian?

      Asserting that someone who broke the law and leaked classified info to a foreign government should be prosecuted is Orwellian?  Why?

      Why insult someone that way when you could argue your point of view instead?  You might have persuaded this person on some points, but instead you just come off looking like a dick. Congrats.

      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

      by Triscula on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:41:26 AM PDT

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      •  I thought it was obvious on it's face. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shotput8, happymisanthropy

        But since TIA is now a fully integrated part of our society (in spite of the fact that we thought we'd stomped it to death when W proposed it a decade or so ago) we must roll over like...sorry I can't come up with a better example than the proles of 1984.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

        by nailbender on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 08:48:05 AM PDT

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        •  Who argued that we should roll over? (0+ / 0-)

          The reality is that as nearly all communications are now digital, and those digital signals must flow through an infrastructure, it is now possible to gather copious amounts of this data.  Governments and law enforcement agencies will always seek to have as much access to this information as possible.  The debate is now about how we want that to happen.  The current "process" is far to ripe for abuse and overreach, so we the people must figure out what that balance between security and privacy shall be in a new era of communication technology.  That's not "rolling over", that's participating in our system of government.

          It IS a fantasy to imagine that the infrastructure that allows for gathering data will be dismantled.  It won't be.  What we, as responsible citizens, need to do now is assert the limits, oversight, and procedures for how law enforcement and intelligence agencies and use it.

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

          by Triscula on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:22:04 AM PDT

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          •  Do you realize that without whistleblowers like (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caoimhin Laochdha

            Snowden and Drake et al, responsible citizens have no way of knowing what the 'limits' are that you say we should be asserting?  

            We're having a discussion about it because of Snowden.  Without his expose', we would be arguing hypotheticals only.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

            by nailbender on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:45:14 AM PDT

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            •  I don't disagree with that (0+ / 0-)

              As I've said in another comment, if for no other reason than his actions bringing the issue into the public debate, I am grateful.  I'm not sure that his actions rise to the level of "whistleblower", in that we don't yet know if there are violations of the law, per se, but his revelations have enlightened the public (it appears) as to the system that is in place for data collection and analysis.

              That being said, if he has violated the law then there are consequences for that.  Honestly, those who want to hang the mantle of "Hero" on the guy must understand this too.  There's no heroism here unless the risk of serious consequences exists too.  It's not heroic to do something without risk.  

              Furthermore, I question the intention of some of his actions, such as going to China and revealing intelligence information to the Chinese.  I don't see how that is in any way heroic, especially when it's beginning to look as though that was his "get out of jail" card.  Heroes face the consequences, they don't sell out their nation's classified intelligence to foreign countries to save their asses.  I don't know of Snowden is a hero or a criminal.  Maybe he's a little of both (how much of each is still an open question), but he has definitely done some things that have made me suspicious of his motives.

              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

              by Triscula on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 11:01:57 AM PDT

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      •  More oversight? Are you serious? Did you even (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shotput8, happymisanthropy

        think before typing that?  You do realize, don't you, that the Orwellian programs in question would be completely opaque if it weren't for Snowden, and that the members of Congress charged with "overseeing" it have no ability to discuss it in public or to even object to any part of it ina any meaningful way because of the strict classified nature of it?

        Ok, you got me.  I probably should have used Catch 22 as a reference.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

        by nailbender on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:01:09 AM PDT

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        •  Yeah, of course I'm aware (0+ / 0-)

          ...which is why I think the people should debate these issues openly and demand changes in the way the programs are run, increase tranparency (secret courts? wtf?), and find ways to insert meaningful oversight into the way digital data is handled, gathered, and viewed.

          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

          by Triscula on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:11:28 AM PDT

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          •  Increase transparency without knowing what (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            milkbone, greenbell

            the programs are (absent whistleblowers' efforts)?  Does the name Yossarian ring a bell?

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi // Question: "succeed" at what?

            by nailbender on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 09:47:05 AM PDT

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          •  What good would oversight be? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greenbell

            Oversight without the ability to stop the abuses would mean watching train wreck after train wreck after train wreck in slow motion, with no power to stop the next train wreck.

            What are you doing to fight the dangerous and counterproductive error of treating dirtbag terrorist criminals as though they were comic book supervillains? I can't believe we still have to argue this shit, let alone on Daily Kos.

            by happymisanthropy on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 10:11:32 AM PDT

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            •  There's still a lot we don't know (0+ / 0-)

              As far as I'm aware, no abuses have been revealed (yet) so we don't know if that has been an issue.  Obviously oversight entails more than just watching, it means setting guidelines and establishing a chain of accountability, checks, and rules that would significantly reduce the possibility of abuse.  Right now it appears that what is in place is laughably inadequate.

              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Gandhi

              by Triscula on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 11:04:28 AM PDT

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