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View Diary: Solving Rape? - A Very Short Statement For Those Who Just Don't Get It! (358 comments)

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  •  It's rape -- if the person did NOT say "YES" (5+ / 0-)

    Nowhere in our law does "silence" EVER convey "consent."  (For example:" An offer to sell  may expire by  a particular date, but failure to refuse that offer does not create an enforceable contract.)

    Oddly, even some (young, naive and guilt-prone) survivors have trouble internalizing that concept.

    In 1991 Antioch College tried to formally embody this idea in a campus code of behavior.   You'd think ... given that college populations throw people from entirely different cultures and value sets together in behind-doors situations ... everyone would have been delighted and compliant.

      Such was SO not the case.  

    Try  a google of [ antioch sexual policy] you will find more mockery and condemnation than intelligent engagement, much less  understanding and support.

    I'm not sure that frequent, public  and draconian punishment of date-rapists, stalkers and workplace harassers is the whole answer ... but "a little more" couldn't hurt.

    (And in the Military, the proven method of "changing culture" has been to set the objectives, and then punish the commanders  whose subordinates fail to achieve them.)

    What's so hard about "ONLY Yes means Yes !"

    •  Re (0+ / 0-)
      Nowhere in our law does "silence" EVER convey "consent."  (For example:" An offer to sell  may expire by  a particular date, but failure to refuse that offer does not create an enforceable contract.)
      Ah, but if I ask you to walk with me somewhere and you just start walking but don't affirmatively agree, am I guilty of kidnapping?

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 04:28:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is there some point you want to make ? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2

        Can you really NOT know the answer to this?

        Can you really imagine that your hypothetical "walk" has anything in common with anyone's "fuck." ??

        Never mind ... I'll play along

        This is what I remember from about the  New York State criminal statute.

        The elements of the crime of Kidnapping includes some variant on the  "unlawful detention."   The standard is that force, or the threat of force, must be employed to restrain the victim.

        I don't remember that the statute includes a specific length of time at which a  simple Assault is escalated to Unlawful Detention and then again to Kidnapping.  Nor do I remember whether actually moving the victim from one place to another is required to sustain the charge of Kidnapping.

        But in any case ... it is the introduction of force into the scenario that creates the criminal offense.

        So, "No" ... you're not guilty of Kidnapping as long as I walk along side you.  That crime results when you prevent me from going elsewhere.  

        But there IS an issue here:   The Lunkhead and the Ingenue.  

        The Ingenue is too well brought up, too inhibited and too other-worldly to understand that the Lunkhead is making sexual advances until somewhere between "2nd and 3rd bases. "   Not knowing how to cope with the situation,  she does nothing and the Lunkhead proceeds to fondle, sodomize  or have intercourse with the Ingenue.  And oh yeah, just for shits and giggles -- "alcohol was involved" for both of them.

        So ... is the Lunkhead guilty of a Rape ?  

        Damn right !   The problem is:  "proving it."

        In the real world: this IS a SheSaid/HeSaid.

        Will a police department investigate a case like this.  Well, in NYC they'd probably take a report from the victim and interview the alleged perpetrator.  

        But you tell me.

         Rape in the First Degree is carries a 15 year penalty.   Is the unsupported word of the victim enough to proceed to arrest?  Arraignment?  To a Grand Jury?  If you were on the jury, knowing only SheSaid/HeSaid ... would YOU vote to convict?  What more would you need in the way of evidence.

        •  Re (0+ / 0-)
          The elements of the crime of Kidnapping includes some variant on the  "unlawful detention."   The standard is that force, or the threat of force, must be employed to restrain the victim.
          Same with rape. It's a violent crime. It's exactly the same thing.
          The Ingenue is too well brought up, too inhibited and too other-worldly to understand that the Lunkhead is making sexual advances until somewhere between "2nd and 3rd bases. "   Not knowing how to cope with the situation,  she does nothing and the Lunkhead proceeds to fondle, sodomize  or have intercourse with the Ingenue.  And oh yeah, just for shits and giggles -- "alcohol was involved" for both of them.
          So ... is the Lunkhead guilty of a Rape ?  
          Damn right !   The problem is:  "proving it."
          Nope, not guilty. If he didn't use violence or the threat of force, he's not guilty. To assume otherwise is to infantilize women and assume they are incapable of managing their own sexual affairs (and to ignore the law).

          You are quoting the law as you wish it would be as opposed to how it is.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:29:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh! You're so CLEVER ! You GOT me !! (0+ / 0-)

            I really should have included "in the moral sense" before the "Damned Right."  

            Yeah ... like 11th grade Geometry class -- "if you skip steps you lose points".

            •  That's how the law works (0+ / 0-)

              So you concede that I am 100% correct then?

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:04:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh God! Oh yes. (0+ / 0-)

                You are 100% correct that rape is a crime of violence and without evidence of the violence no conviction for the crime of rape is possible ...  

                And I didn't explicitly state that because of her sheltered upbringing, inexperience and poor social skills, the Ingenue (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that ANY aggressive male was potentially dangerous and therefore threatening.  Stupid. Bad. Stupid Me.

                So ...

                YOU WIN

                YOU ARE BETTER

                YOU ARE WISER

                I AM DEFEATED

                (Have you cum yet)

                I AM INFERIOR

                YOU ARE VICTORIOUS

                ( Now?  Now?)

                Time's up, John ... zip it up and get out of here !

                •  He's right, you know. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  soros

                  Don't be so dramatic.

                  In very few of my sexual encounters was the question expressly asked, "Do you want to have sex?"

                  It's usually an escalation of kissing and physical touching that later leads to sex. Your notion that it's rape without a verbally spoken "yes" is absurd.

                  Are you actually trying to argue that rape is not defined by the act itself, but rather, how one of the participants feels about it the next day?

                  Please proceed, Governor.

                  by USArmyParatrooper on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:35:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Probably.. (0+ / 0-)

                    there was a diary here a while ago with lots of Recs about someone that didn't understand what she went through was rape until a few years after the fact... and after someone convinced her that it was raped..

                    It's all very subjective.. next time you're anywhere near a sexual encounter get a lawyer quickly and have the terms of the deal witnessed before signing.

                    To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition.” ― Woody Allen

                    by soros on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:56:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  You again (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, martydd

            Can there ever be a discussion of sex and rape without you showing up with your sickening view of what it is and what it isn't?

            What is it you don't understand about "lack of consent"?  Is the concept that anyone has the right to refuse sex that difficult for you to understand?

            Rape does not require violence or threat of force.  
            Rape does not require violence or threat of force.
            Rape does not require violence or threat of force.

            According to your sick little worldview, it isn't rape if a teacher hints to a student that an "A" is available for sexual favors, if a boss hints to a subordinate that they might keep their job in an upcoming workforce reduction for certain benefits granted, or if an interview subject suggests a hot news item could be revealed for the same.

            According to your sick little worldview, offering a 12 year old a ride in a slick sportscar in exchange for sex is not rape.

            According to your sick little worldview, pouring six drinks into someone, waiting until they fall unconscious, and having sex with them is not rape.

            Your viewpoint is not just wrong.  It's immoral, and that's why I will not hesitate to call you out every time you show up in one of these discussions,

            Your viewpoint is offensive and you need to be called out for it.

        •  I have a question about your scenario (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sparhawk, soros

          A man and a woman are drinking alcohol. Both have lowered inhibitions.

          The man and the woman begin kissing, one thing leads to another and they ended up having sex.

          Neither the man, nor the woman, actually asked "Do you want to have sex?"

          Did they both rape each other? How is that substantively different from your scenario?

          Please proceed, Governor.

          by USArmyParatrooper on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 06:29:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've had ONE "gotcha" already, today ... so (0+ / 0-)

            you tell me.

            In your set-up: The next morning one of them has Sexual Buyer's Remorse and files a criminal complaint.

            What do you think happens in the real world?

            What do you think ought to happen ?

            •  It's not a "gotcha" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              soros, Sparhawk

              It's YOUR scenario.

              If one of them has sexual buyer's remorse the next day, too bad. Rape is defined by the act itself, not whether not one of the participants later decides he or she regrets it.

              In the real world, if a rape accusation is made the accused will be investigated, as should all allegations of rape.

              Please proceed, Governor.

              by USArmyParatrooper on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:29:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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