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View Diary: Cynical Anarcho-Libertarians Risk Losing a Generation to Cynical Libertarians (57 comments)

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  •  Thanks for the good laugh to start the day! (9+ / 0-)
    But what is the government actually "seizing"? If a data search includes an anonymous telephone number, which the government, by law, cannot further distinguish or analyze because it is not "terrorism information,
    Yeah, "by law" - funny, funny, funny stuff! (note that I usually only use two "funny's" for this type of statement).
    •  We are a society of laws. (6+ / 0-)

      Cynicalists and anarchists don't recognize that. Libertarians hate them. Thank the FSM for our laws! In that way, we are civilized, and we can get away from the selfish, the greed-centric and develop more of the "us" mentality. Yep, thank the FSM for our laws and our government because without them, I'd probably be in the street fighting off a pack of zombie anarcho-Libertarians! ; )

      I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

      by Tortmaster on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 05:10:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The thing is laws apply to some in our society (7+ / 0-)

        but much less so to others.

        If you haven't noticed that yet, perhaps you are young enough to still "live and learn"  - just keep your eyes open, it won't be difficult.

        •  Of course I've noticed that. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jeff Simpson, Deep Texan, JoanMar

          It happens all the time. I hate it too. My best possible solution is to elect more Blue Legislators and Blue Governors (and Blue City Councilpersons) and vote out more Red Governors and Red Legislators. Then, I'm betting shit gets real for the banksters, the polluters, the Tea Party grifters and the like.

          Nobody can see a future that never happened, but it is my belief that we'd've dealt with a few more of those inequities if President Obama and a Blue Congress didn't have to face two wars and a Great Recession right out of the gate in 2009. We'll never know, but that's my impression.

          I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

          by Tortmaster on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 05:37:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Seriously? (7+ / 0-)

            Who is Gen. Clapper.  What is his job?  At whose pleasure does he serve?  And why isn't he being held in contempt of congress right this very second?

            Who is James Brennan?  What information has he leaked?  What was his punishment for having leaked classified information?  Why isn't he in the same cell that Scooter Libby once occupied?

            Who is Bradley Manning?  Thomas Drake?  John Kirakou?  Ed Snowden?  John Yoo?  Jay Bybee?  Dick Cheney?  David Addington?

            What are all the Blue Legislators, Blue Justice Dept. Lawyers, Blue Executive Branch Officials doing to ensure that we are a country which respects Rule of Law with respect to those named above?

          •  You forgot the (0+ / 0-)

            army of self-important keyboard-warriors who think that the revolution will be blogged and not slogged.

            but it is my belief that we'd've dealt with a few more of those inequities if President Obama and a Blue Congress didn't have to face two wars and a Great Recession right out of the gate in 2009.

            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

            by JoanMar on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 08:44:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks, JoanMar, but ... (0+ / 0-)

              ... trying to have a rational discussion with people who want to protest airport security as if it was the end of the world and then anonymous telephone numbers as if they were the end of the world is fruitless. If you think about it, they'd protest you trying to stop terror acts, and when terror acts occurred, they'd protest any security measures. I think they'd just as soon see a bunch of dead bodies.

              Take care!  

              I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

              by Tortmaster on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 04:15:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  You really should (0+ / 0-)

        read up a bit on real anarchist theory before characterizing the ideas falsely.

        Anarchists are not a disorganized band of wild thugs, but rather advocate an egalitarian social structure that is organized horizontally, rather than vertically and hierarchically. Anarchism is a non-statist, non-authoritarian form of socialism.

        The basic component is the participatory community, which come together to form federations, and delegates are sent to the federations who are mandated and recallable, and have no autocratic authority of their own, but serve the communities which delegate them.

        It takes a bit of reading to get a good sense of how this works, but it is a viable, intelligent system of self management that is truly based on freedom and democracy.

        Here's something I wrote in another post:

        Anarcho-capitalism is an oxymoron, since anarchism has traditionally meant non-authoritarian socialism, and is definitely anti-capitalist. An-archo means without ruler or without authority.

        Libertarianism, as well, in Europe has always meant libertarian socialism (anarchism).

        In the US, the right wing has tried to adopt these terms, and some are so ignorant they think the right wing invented the usage, but the terms anarchism and libertarian date back to the mid 1800s in Europe, and are still used around the world today to indicate anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian forms of socialism.

        Libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian.

        And anarchists are not against organization in the slightest degree, rather, they prefer an egalitarian,  horizontal form of social organization, rather than vertical, hierarchical forms that are top down in governance, with elites calling the shots. Worker owned co-ops which are democratically organized using consensus or other forms of direct democracy is an example of a horizontal form of community self-management.

        The reason right wing usage of the terms is self-contradictory is because capitalism is by nature vertical and hierarchical in social structure, and is rife with authority and rulership over workers by the owner class who control the means of production. So, this isn't truly anarchic or liberating in any sense, except for those few who mange to become the owner class.

        Just a brief history about the terms for anyone interested.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 03:59:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  There's an old country song... (7+ / 0-)

      Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors.

      The law doesn't matter behind those doors.  

    •  They're Seizing Nothing, They're Copying (4+ / 0-)

      Which is one of countless points going back to 1789, when it failed to step up to address the nature its own times, where our system falls completely off the rails.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 06:04:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Speaking of 1789, as long as they don't (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, alain2112

        put a quarter of a troop in my house, which by reading the Bill of Rights seems to have been an issue back then, I'm good!

        •  Misreading (3+ / 0-)

          You misread this:

          No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house...
          What the founders meant was that no soldiers could be sliced into four roughly equal parts in your house. Which makes sense: that has to be really messy.

          Join the fight for student power on campus:

          by Liberaltarian on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 09:45:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, so if the soldier had already been quartered (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            it was kosher for him or her (or at least 1/4 of him or her) to be stored in my basement?

            Since presumably he or she (or at least 1/4 of he or she) would have already been nicely and sanitarily wrapped in saran wrap, aluminum foil (or even tinfoil) as the case may be and not have been objectionably messy?

            OK, that all makes good sense.  But points out another flaw in my Kansas education - they never taught me * any * of that.  

      •  I like this distinction, (0+ / 0-)

        though I'm not sure it will make any difference. It offers the possible (though far-fetched) argument of copyright infringement against any data seizure of more than, say, two paragraphs of an email, or the use of such material in a prosecution.


        At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

        by serendipityisabitch on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 05:26:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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