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View Diary: The unspoken truth you know deep down about Hillary & Obama (940 comments)

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  •  That is not my idea of citizenship at all. (23+ / 0-)

    Also not my idea of citizenship: letting the GOP win elections. I would rather that every Democrat were Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders or even Barney Frank. But right now we have the party we've got. We've got to work on electing more progressives, but while we're working on that, we've got to keep voting for the best we've got. Staying home and letting the GOP win does nothing to help us. Moreover, it endangers our ability to elect anyone with the GOP in charge of redistricting in states all over the country.

    I'm sorry, but I think some of us have too much tunnel vision about what we'd like the party to be and it would behoove us to start seeing more forest and less tree.

    I resent that. I demand snark, and overly so -- Markos Moulitsas.

    by commonmass on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:25:52 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Jesse's right. You use different words and (9+ / 0-)

      more of them, but they amount to exactly what he's described.

      •  Nope. I don't play that game. (11+ / 0-)

        Here's the game I play. I will vote for the most progressive Democratic candidate in the primaries. IF Sec. Clinton wins the nomination, I will vote for her. I doubt she's going to run on privatizing Social Security.

        I never tell people they "can't complain". But I will be angry if significant numbers of progressives stay home and allow the GOP to take the White House.

        I resent that. I demand snark, and overly so -- Markos Moulitsas.

        by commonmass on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:48:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  She will not run on privatizing Social Security (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass, angel d, fuzzyguy, polecat, k9disc

          She will run on cutting Social Security (in the fine print, of course, carefully hidden among weasel words) and spending the money on Syria, Iran and the Surveillance State.

        •  Yup. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass, offgrid
          I never tell people they "can't complain". But I will be angry if significant numbers of progressives stay home and allow the GOP to take the White House.
          And you know they'll turn around and insist they didn't whine after they spent months and years bitching, complaining and armchair quarterbacking.

          Bitch, bitch, bitch. Whine, whine, whine and then get angry at anyone who suggests they have any responsibility for the outcome.

          People like this are just not to be taken seriously. They think that if they stand up once and try, and it doesn't work out, that that's it and the world has failed them.

          The simple fact is this: No Democrat will be able to do what Obama wasn't able to if we don't figure out how to win in gerrymandered red districts. If we don't take the House back, won't shit get done. I see Jeremy Bird trying to figure out how to do this. I don't see any of these whiny-ass weaklings trying to figure out how to solve any real problems.

          I'm not wedded to Hillary, but I'm sure and shit not wedded to weak, navel gazing ideological purists who think the world ends when shit doesn't work out the first time.

          •  I remember 2010 (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass, Yang Guang

            I remember all the "If those emoprogs don't stop saying mean things about President Obama, I'll never vote Democrat again!" diaries.

            Our snoops are not legally authorized to snoop without legal authorization. Of course, if they were legally authorized to snoop without legal authorization, that would constitute legal authorization. Do you feel better yet?

            by happymisanthropy on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 11:02:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't remember any of that bullshit (0+ / 0-)

              because diaries on Daily Kos don't matter to people trying to figure out how to win.

              So run along and pout about how some Obama supporter was mean to you, or Rahm punched you, or Obama betrayed you; because you obviously ain't in the woods for the hunting.

              Obama had people waiting in line to vote for eight hours while you sat here and wanked, and that was after he hippie punched you. Name one progressive that can do that. I defy you.

        •  It's not the progressives (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass, k9disc

          staying home and not voting that's going to allow the GOP back in the WH. People just regular people across the board like the Democratic liberal HS teacher next door or the indie across the street who became an indie due to the corrupt big dog Clinton administration. My daughter in Law wrote in Bernie Saunders in 2012 she was so disgusted with this administration's betrayal. She's not a purist she's a former indie and was from a rural  Republican family.

          Then there's the young people who turned out en mass for Obama. They are not ideologically purists they are not stupid or low information but they are not going to take the fear of R bait. Good luck getting them back especially with a candidate that joked about the ice melting in the arctic 'it will open up more drilling fields'  In 2004 I campaigned for Kerry and the young voters just laughed, slammed their doors or said Coke or Pepsi. They did however get enthusiastic about Dean and Kucinich in the primary.  

          My district is 85% solid Democratic the rest are either Greens or indies.  Most people do not even know what a purist progressive is but they do know that the current  Democratic party offers them no choice. Perhaps the  fear card will save the day but if it doesn't don't put this on the 'progressive purists'. If the Democrat's lose it's because of what they have done after the voters gave them a majority and the WH to stop this shit. Put the blame where it belongs on the Democratic party corporate Third Way machine that burned us with their 'two for' bait and switch.            

      •  No he's not (2+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, nadd2
        Hidden by:
        Meteor Blades

        Politics is about what's possible, and if wobbly progs stay home in a snit like they did in 2010, whatever bad can happen will happen on OVERDRIVE.

        What do you people want?  Do you want the Thugs to have every branch of government so that it gets so fucked up in this country that we have angry mobs being shot down in the street by Blackwater "police"?

        I honestly think people who say these things want everything they want right now or they'll pout.

        "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

        by leftykook on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 05:54:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're righ and SO WRONG. (8+ / 0-)

        Anyone who even suggests staying home for a presidential election rather than voting for a corporatist Democrat is frankly a fucking idiot.  

        The reason as pointed out REPEATEDLY is very simple.  You don't vote for the Democrat then the GOP wins.  The GOP wins and YOU LOSE.  A GOP president chooses more Antonin Scalias for the Supreme Court.  A GOP president will gut the EPA, open all public lands to drilling, start more unnecessary wars, allow the corporate raiders to take over and throw us in 'free speech' zones.  A GOP president will be an absolute disaster.  If we thought George Bush was a disaster, the current crop of GOP hopefuls make him look like a walk in the park.

        The problem is our system does not afford us the opportunity to vote for our preferred candidates.  We basically have a choice between bad and worse at the presidential level.  What all the purity trolls fail to see is that worse is MUCH WORSE.  The presidential level is not the place to play these purity games.  Too much is at stake and we have no choice.  It's either Hillary Clinton or whatever Corporate sellout Democrat with the money and resources to win the nomination or it's bust.  

        Now if purity trolls want to do something meaningful and steer the Democratic Party in a direction more to their liking then it should be done from inside, but not at the top.  You like Elizabeth Warren?  Fine.  Lets elect more like her.  Congress is a perfect example of where we can push for real change.  The president doesn't craft legislation.  They can set an agenda but its Congress that crafts legislation.  We can have the most pro corporation, pro war Democrat as president but if we have 51 Senators and 218 Reps who vote for Medicare for all, that Democratic president will have little choice but to sign that bill.  

        The thing that infuriated me the most is that we seem to treat the executive elections the same as the Legislative elections and they're not.  We have but one choice for president.  If we don't get the preferred candidate in the primary then we HAVE TO unite and get that Dem elected president.  If we don't we get 2000 all over again, where a bunch of purity trolls either stayed home or voted for some washed up has been from Winsted CT who had ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE OF WINNING.  The end result was 8 years of Bush, 2 wars, deficits as far as the eye could see, John Roberts, Samuel Alito, Citizens United, the worst recession since the Great Depression, an ever increasing police state, the Patriot Act and so on.    

        We can start laying the groundwork now for a more progressive party.  But without a Democratic president leading the country, it's all moot.  We need a powerhouse at the top of the ticket in 2016 and 2020 and we need to be united if we're ever to build a better Democratic Party in the future.  It matters much less if that Dem at the top of the ticket is a DINO so long as the Dems downticket are more progressive and the Dem at the top wins in such a decisive fashion that the right will be demoralized and stay home.  If we stay home at the presidential level then we risk not only losing those opportunities downticket but we risk having a situation where the country will be so irreparably damaged by President Paul, President Cruz or whatever nutjob makes it through the GOP primaries that there will be no fixing the damage done, let alone moving forward in a more progressive direction.  

        Staying home in 2016 because you don't like the choice for Dem president ultimately is fucking stupid and selfish.  Anyone who does, forfeits for ever their right to bitch and complain about anything related to politics in the US.  Does the choice suck?  Absolutely.  Do you have a choice if you want a better future?  No.  AT LEAST NOT IN THE SHORT TERM.  Does that mean Vote D and Shut the fuck up?  Well that's the system we have so if you want a brighter future than the dystopian nightmare offered up by the GOP, then yeah.  Vote D and shut the fuck up or you're part of the problem and not part of the solution.  I personally hate to have to say that, and as someone who is probably to the left of Bernie Sanders it sucks more than ever that I'll have to vote for Hillary, but that's the reality.

        This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

        by DisNoir36 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 07:33:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with you, but let's at least fight for (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, happymisanthropy, claude

      what's right until we win or lose, nominee-wise.  

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