Skip to main content

View Diary: Beyond A Reasonable Doubt: Applying The Wrong Legal Standard To Establishing Consent in Rape Case (167 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  The problem (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, Rei, LaraJones, Cassandra Waites

    Is that juries don't treat "They didn't have permission to have sex with me" right.  That should be extraordinarily compelling evidence of non-consent.  It is not a statement that people make under penalty of perjury, in a courtroom, intending to settle some petty grudge.  

    The problem comes from a rape culture which endlessly promotes the myth that women frequently lie about being raped.

    •  Re (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NearlyNormal, AdamSelene
       It is not a statement that people make under penalty of perjury, in a courtroom, intending to settle some petty grudge
      Then why are there numerous examples of people doing precisely that? Just google "false rape allegation" to see numerous examples of this kind of thing, and often for petty or trivial reasons.

      I am not asserting anything here other than to poke holes in your ridiculous theory that we should mostly throw people in jail on a complainant's testimony without other corroboration

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 02:23:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't say allegation (0+ / 0-)

        I said a sworn courtroom statement.  This is not an accusation.  This is not an innuendo.  This is a claim made under penalty of perjury, in a courtroom, subject to cross-examination.

        If you're not willing to convict people based on the testimony of a single witness, you're not going to be very happy with an awful lot of criminal convictions.

        •  Re (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NearlyNormal, HiBob, VClib
          False testimony leads to dismissal of Coolbaugh sexual assault case
          February 04, 2009 - 9:41 AM
          Five young men have been vindicated of sexual assault charges after two teenage girls admitted to testifying falsely under oath, the District Attorney’s Office said today.
          I just found this thing in 5 seconds of Googling. You just assured me that lying about rape under oath never happens.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 02:38:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't say it never happens (0+ / 0-)

            I said that the testimony is extremely credible when made to a jury in a courtroom.

            A single case of false testimony doesn't disprove that, especially since that case apparently never went to trial, and the false statements, while sworn, were not in court.

            If I threaten to kill you in a dark alley and demand your wallet, but you bolt and get to a cop, would you acquit me for lack of evidence?

      •  Studies on false reports of rape are varied, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites, Dogs are fuzzy

        but the median rate is about 10%.  Well, guess what?  About 10% of insurance claims (numbers vary depending on reports and types of crimes) are fake.  About 10% of car theft rates are fake.  On and on down the line.  But once again, people focus only on false rape reports.  Why?

        Because women claiming rape are clearly just lying sluts, that's why, right?   At least that's the clear perception that society keeps sending over and over in about 100 different ways.

        And there's clearly a problem.  10% of men admit to researchers to having raped and about 25% of women will get raped in their lives.  A quick 30-second Google search didn't turn up the number of US convictions per year, but one revealed that in the UK it's about 800.  The UK population is 63 million.   Say 21 million men, so 2.1 million rapists.  Multiply 800 by the average UK male lifespan - I'll guess 78 - and that's 62,000 convictions during the 2.1 million rapists' lifespans.  

        See the scale of the problem here?

        Ignoring it won't make it go away.

        We need a judicial system that's actually effective enough at prosecuting rape that:

        A) Cases brought to court don't end up with significantly lower conviction rates than for other crimes;
        B) Reported cases don't end up exceedingly unlikely to go to court, as they do today; and
        C) Victims can have enough trust in the judicial system to not feel that reporting is a meaningless effort that can only have negative repercussions on them.

        We can't change the fact that people - like, clearly, you - automatically operate on the premise of an abnormally high rate of false crime reporting among rape and disbelieve victims.  But we can change the process to make it effective enough that cases brought to court are more successful, more reported cases go to court, and more victims feel that it's not meaningless to take their case to the police.

        •  Sorry, should be (0+ / 0-)

          31 million men / 3.1 million rapists.  Can't divide tonight...

          •  There aren't 3.1 million rapists in the UK (0+ / 0-)

            Are you kidding here?

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Wed Jun 19, 2013 at 04:57:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Denial won't change facts. (0+ / 0-)

              Or did you think that there were only like 10 guys going around raping 25% of the women in the US and UK?

              It is simply a fact that about 10% of men willingly confess to rape in scientific studies if you don't use the word rape and simply ask whether they've ever done any of a variety of acts which are unambiguously rape.  Check out Lisak & Miller, and McWorter as 2 examples.  

              Rape is a ridiculously common plague on our society.  And this won't change until people like you come to accept the facts.  Think of all the guys you know in your life.  Statistically, about a tenth of them have raped someone.  Deal with it.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site