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View Diary: BREAKING: The Guardian and Glenn Greenwald Do it Again....Top Secret FISA Court Documents Revealed (627 comments)

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  •  What would you have them do? (4+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Fishgrease, Catte Nappe, peacestpete, artmartin
    Hidden by:
    JesseCW

    Is it your opinion that if evidence of a crime is obtained that NSA should just drop it in the bit bucket?

    Foreign Subject: "I hear your wife was talking to that Jewish grocer. What are you going to do?"

    US Subject (known location Naperville): "I can't believe she's still talking to him. I'm going to kill the infidel and make her watch, inshallah, she can't disrespect me like that."

    So Norm, does the grocer die?

    •  Yes - what if torturing the terrorist could (22+ / 0-)

      prevent an imminent nuclear attack on the Statue of Liberty? We've been down the Jack Bauer ticking time bomb slippery slope before, and it wasn't fun.

      “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

      by 420 forever on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 02:31:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think that the point was (13+ / 0-)

      that they are intercepting domestic communications and then determining whether there is any foreign element to it after the fact. This would seem to me to be a direct violation of the 4th Amendment.

      As regards your strawman scenario- I personally would prefer that the government not be listening to the phone call.

      "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

      by aggressiveprogressive on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 02:38:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ok, you seem to miss the point (6+ / 0-)

        that the only reason that the "phone call" is being listened to is that one participant (or his phone #) is subject to surveillance pursuant to a warrant issued by the FISA court. That conversation with a person who was unknown at the time of the intercept. Upon analysis it is NOW determined that the person is US and that the content of the intercepted communication pertains to a crime or loss of life in the US.  

        While I understand the desire to not have the call recorded, the minimisation procedures deal with 1) the fact that it WAS recorded and 2) a crime has been detected.

        The 4th Amendment protects us from unreasonable searches, not all searches. Communicating with a known, or suspected, foreign intelligence or terror organisation operative may pretty clearly grant probable cause for the collection.

        •  So the known foreign terrorist (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago, greenbell

          Is reporting back to the US to let the angry American know that his is wife was talking to the grocer? Wouldn't the angry American guy just keep the wife at home if he can't tolerate her talking to people at the local businesses? And why is foreign terrorist guy monitoring angry American guy's wife? Is there something going on between those 2?

          All in all, I'd prefer that the NSA not listen to my conversations or angry American guy's either.

          "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

          by aggressiveprogressive on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 03:57:39 PM PDT

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          •  Why are we pretending this shit is ok? (3+ / 0-)

            What this hate filled fuck just did was directly comparable to painting some scenario in which an African American man was planning on the phone to "go rape a white woman".

            Just a pile of knowing and intentional exploitation of ignorance, bigotry, and fear - and aimed at the one group in the US it's still generally considered ok to treat that way.

            It's rank, foul, anti-Muslim bullshit that reads like a transcript of Bill O'Reilly circa 2003.

            Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

            by JesseCW on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 02:28:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  They can't and don't use such info in court (5+ / 0-)

        They can use the US person's communication to alert law enforcement, to stop a crime, or begin an investigation, but not as evidence against the US person.

        Yes, it's still an intrusion on privacy, but it's not accurate to say that US people are being prosecuted with information taken from these NSA captures.

        And yes, if someone does have information that could stop an imminent violent crime, they absolutely should pass the info along in the hope that it will be stopped.

        Please help to fight hunger with a donation to Feeding America.

        by MJB on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 03:05:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The penalty for 4th amendment violations is that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dkmich, Norm in Chicago, artmartin

        evidence gathered in violation of the 4th amendment is thrown out of court in a court case against the person in question.  I wonder if there has been any evidence that NSA evidence gathered in violation of the 4th amendment was used in a court case against an American, and the judge didn't throw that evidence out?

        In addition to the standard penalty of disallowing the evidence gathered in violation of the 4th amendment, a person can file a civil lawsuit against law enforcement authorities for violation of the 4th amendment, so as to seek monetary and/or punitive damages/relief.

        So I imagine there'll be a class action lawsuit over this matter (which means that the lawyers bringing the suit will get millions of dollars and each person in the "class" will get ~$30. hehe;  I remember the class action "relief" I received for a suit against Apple for iPod defections; I got $30 and a coupon; the lawyer got millions.  :))

        However, if an individual can bring a more narrow lawsuit, showing that he, himself was substantially violated by NSA searches in violation of 4th amendment, (as opposed to a broad class action suit), then the individual could get a hefty payment I think.

    •  What would you have them do? (6+ / 0-)

      Stop the surveillance.

      "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

      by allenjo on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 02:49:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And let the grocer die, got it. (0+ / 0-)
        •  Stop doing the things that (6+ / 0-)

          make people want to kill Americans.  But that seems to be a crazy idea . . .

          "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

          by bryduck on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 04:10:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again missing the point. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            artmartin, Norm in Chicago

            AQ did not lay down when Barack Obama was elected. There are truly evil people in the world, the kind that think that convincing young people to blow themselves up is going to accomplish something (other than dead young people).

            But the question at hand is what to do with evidence of a crime. Kind of like having a plan for what you'll do when your house catches fire. If you don't have a plan, you're in more trouble than if you do. Its not like you're planning on burning down you house, but when it happens what are you going to do.

            That's whats happening here. The US does intelligence collection, we do and will continue to, so whats the plan when the unexpected, but predictable happens? I think that the administrations approach to pass on evidence of crime is the right thing to do.

            I also think that US foreign policy is better now than under GWB. But that doesn't mean that there are not folks in the world that want to do harm to the US public.

        •  So we can't... (9+ / 0-)

          just let the police do the work of catching wrongdoers under the framework of our constitution (and state constitutions)?  We have to go around one of our fundamental founding principles to capture wrongdoers now?  

          "[I]n the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone...They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand."

          by cardboardurinal on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 04:11:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We do foreign intelligence, we'll continue. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            artmartin, Norm in Chicago

            What do we do when we come across other bad stuff. That's the question.

            None of the NSA programs are about surveilling the us population looking for wrongdoing. But when looking at foreign targets, every now and then you come across evidence of wrongdoing in the US. Its a simple question, do you pass on it or do the absolute minimal amount (send a tip)?

            If you're worried about domestic surveillance then you're about 150 miles too far south. NYPD seems to have the domestic surveillance racket pretty well in hand...

        •  Enjoying yourself? (0+ / 0-)

          Maybe the grocer would rather live free in a free society and take the chance that he might die someday because he wasn't living under the Stasi.

          Have you asked him?

          Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 01:59:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  They had a warrant for that communication (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      T100R, Timaeus, tikkun, MKinTN, mikidee

      If they had a foreign suspect, and have the right to listen to THAT specific call, then yes they can act on that intel.

      But what they can't do is comb the database, find someone saying "I'm gonna kill him!", and pounce on that for premeditated murder.

      No, they do not have the right to spy on everyone and claim "it's for our own good".

    •  That's almost worth an HR. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JesseCW, SouthernLiberalinMD

      Craven comment.

      The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.-Bertrand Russell

      by Timaeus on Thu Jun 20, 2013 at 04:49:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fuck almost. That bordered on fucking (0+ / 0-)

        blood libel.

        Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

        by JesseCW on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 02:29:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You're one sick bigoted anti-Muslim fuck and (0+ / 0-)

      I frankly don't understand how the hell you accidently spelled RedState D A I L Y K O S and wound up here.

      Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

      by JesseCW on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 02:23:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's sad to see who Fishgrease really is, BTW. (0+ / 0-)

      Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

      by JesseCW on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 02:30:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's an argument for total surveillance. (0+ / 0-)

      Think of all the crimes that would be prevented if they read/listened to all our communications.

      “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

      by jrooth on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 05:48:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Follow the fucking Constitution which is (0+ / 0-)

      the foundation of our legal system.

      Get a goddamned warrant. Actually, what were you doing in there mucking about in all that data without a warrant in the first place?

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 01:54:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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