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View Diary: Edward Snowden is a Coward and Traitor (275 comments)

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  •  Snowden has owned his actions. (10+ / 0-)

    He's just unwilling to own them in the U.S. because - as he well knows - the U.S. has no respect for law or morality (or even its own Constitution). I too am getting to the point where I'm unwilling to live in this terminally corrupt, neo-fascist, quickly disintegrating country any longer.

    I don't have a problem with a whistleblower choosing to blow his/her whistle from another country so our government can't disappear him back into the grotesque Spook-land of secret laws, secret courts, secret crimes and secret punishments that he escaped from.

    •  So China is now the beacon of freedom (0+ / 0-)

      And the "secret courts" don't try people. Today Snowden sits much closer to the sort of secret courts work you are referring to.

      •  Hong Kong wouldn't be (4+ / 0-)

        my first choice, but it wasn't my decision. I'm also willing to let a whistleblower choose his/her own course of action in that regard. HK is governed a bit differently than the mainland, as it must be due to its long history of western control and the nature of its role in the world.

        I can certainly understand how choosing to seek political asylum in a nation the U.S. government doesn't own outright, can't easily blackmail and cannot militarily intimidate might be a pretty good choice (all things considered). I doubt the PRC wants to try him in their secret courts for whistleblowing on this government's gross abuses of power.

        •  HK is governed differently, as long as it (0+ / 0-)

          the results are in Beijing's interests.

          And what exactly are these "gross abuses of power?" I've yet to see wholesale censoring of internet content, or arrest and detention of political dissidents, or closing of newspapers and TV stations because of the politics of the owners or reporters.

          •  You've ever seen (0+ / 0-)

            the arrest or detention of political dissidents? Huh. You must have missed the '60s and '70s completely.

            As for media control, it seems as if you missed the '80s, '90s and '00s as well.

            •  Seriously, today's NSA alleged surveillance caused (0+ / 0-)

              detention of anti-war protestors in 1970s?

              And media control by the US government? Yeah, that happens all the time, or maybe not. Media control in the interests of the moneyed class, well that's a different thing.

              •  I would dispute your naivete (0+ / 0-)

                on the relative roles and relationship between them, but obviously there is no point.

                This nation enjoys an inspiring origin mythology with beautifully idealistic overtones. But that's mythology, the pablum served to the riff-raff - bedtime stories for children. Its only relationship with reality is the actors' skill in appealing to the audience's already established willingness to suspend disbelief. It takes a bit of talent.

                Obama, for instance, is positively gifted in the talent department. Doesn't make the mythology any less mythological.

      •  What you say is true, and very ironic. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JesseCW, Joieau

        I remember some years back when our state department complained to the North Koreans about an American being held there, and wanted to know if he was being tortured.

        They laughed and replied that they don't treat their prisoners the way Americans do at Gitmo.

        They probably do, but the point was made, wasn't it?  We torture prisoners; they torture prisoners.  We're all police state blood brothers now, so everybody relax.

        It's quite a letdown to realize that that's where we are because of Gitmo and the Bush years.  And Gitmo is still open, still a stain on our reputation, and though we don't want to own up to it, we continue pointing fingers at other countries civil rights problems as if they're too stupid to laugh at the hypocrisy.

        I don't think Snowden endorses anything in Mainland China.  I don't think it would change things much, though, if he did.  This isn't about China.  It's about us and what kind of country we have become.

        •  So we are now a police state? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Exactly how many journalists are serving prison sentences for reporting on government activities? How many citizens are being held on charges of being "enemies of the state?" When was the last time a political rival of the president was jailed? How many candidates have been stricken from ballots by government purity committees?

          Gitmo is a stain that can't be removed, but it does not define us.

          And yes, its about us, where in the real world have your rights been abridged by the revealed programs?

          •  Ask Occupy (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW, corvo, Joieau

            they know a lot more about the current state, police or not, of the US.

            there are many ways to define it. Institutionalized police violence against nonviolent, law abiding protestors, coordinated by the federal govt in cahoots with major industries is a pretty good one.

            Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

            by kamarvt on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 04:42:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Again, how many are currently in jail? (0+ / 0-)

              Occupy was/is all about civil disobedience. And they have made many good points, not yet addressed by our government. And one of the acknowledged risks of civil disobedience is arrest and that does expose people to potential abuse at the hands of the police. The public reaction to such treatment is one of the features of such tactics.

          •  Point taken. We're not as bad as China (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, Joieau

            or North Korea, although the gap between us seems to be shrinking.  As China becomes freer over time, we become more sanguine with the idea of torture and covert domestic intelligence operations and detaining people without trial and killing citizens on the arbitrary orders of our commander in chief.  

            Only ten years ago, it wasn't like this.  And before you tell me again how we all knew this, uh, no, I didn't know that, but I know it for sure now.

            •  China is becoming economically freer, not (0+ / 0-)

              Politically. And I heartily disagree that we are becoming anything like a police state.  That doesn't mean that I'm not aware of what's happening and that I think everything is hunky dory, our criminal justice system is severely broken, but throwing around "police state" rhetoric is over the top.

          •  Whether or not this a police state depends largely (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            on the color of your skin, your gender, and what's in your wallet.

            Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

            by JesseCW on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:08:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Discrimination needs to be erased (0+ / 0-)

              that is certainly true, and those sort of abuses are at the local more than federal level. But none of that is being perpetrated based on NSA surveillance, it is based on old fashioned ignorance and intolerance.

              •  No. It's based on the power structure (0+ / 0-)

                beating down threats to itself.

                We're a brutal country ruled by people who have complete contempt for the common folk.  Two and a half million of our countrymen are being held under intolerable conditions of constant soul-crushing abuse.

                That's the place we live.  That's how it works.

                It just doesn't look that way to those who have successfully insulated themselves from reality behind walls of privilege.

                Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

                by JesseCW on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:48:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly and he can still defend himself (6+ / 0-)

      When he's wrapped in the loving embrace of the 'authorities' (like Manning) he won't have anything to say about the case against him.

      Snowden knows full well he is literally risking his life for this cause and the only way he can prevail is if the court of public opinion overwhelmingly decides in his favor before he's arrested and muzzled.

      Sadly I'm not sure we can muster that necessary outrage to get the administration and the blind patriotic wolf pack to back off.

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