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View Diary: Obama was handed to us - time to face facts folks (287 comments)

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  •  He said he was going to go after Al Qaeda... (15+ / 0-)

    ...in Pakistan during the primaries and that's what he did.

    Don't blame me if a majority of the Dem Party and a majority of Americans disagree with you.

    •  Oh, I think if the "majority" (0+ / 0-)

      really understood the truth, they would agree with me. But referring to the "majority" is not a way to win a debate, since that is a logical fallacy, since majorities have often been wrong. Argumentum ad populum.

      And going after al Qaeda does not require murdering innocent people attending funerals.

      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

      by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:32:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nope. (7+ / 0-)

        Edwards was never close to even winning a state, much less the nomination and the presidency.

        And, by the way, he voted for the Iraq War, so I wouldn't be too sure he wouldn't be sending drones if I were you.

        •  We're talking about war crimes (0+ / 0-)

          and murder. That is now. Edwards is past tense. Irrelevant. None of us really know how he would have governed. But he didn't win the primaries, so the issue is moot. What isn't moot, is we have a very conservative, Wall Street serving Democratic President who has kill lists.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:39:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The theme of this diary is politics. (6+ / 0-)

            How Obama got the nomination and the presidency.

            If you want to discuss other topics, fine, but that's not why I'm commenting here.

            So, I'll just let you have the last word on war crimes.

            •  Okay (0+ / 0-)

              Let's not talk about that which makes you uncomfortable. And let's call a "war crime" what it really is: Murdering innocent people, men, women, children. Blowing them to bits with powerful explosions. That is a war crime. But yeah, let's not talk about that.

              Not important. Nothing new. Why be shocked?

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 02:46:10 AM PDT

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              •  That's not really a war crime (5+ / 0-)

                Considering that hundreds of thousands of innocents get killed in every war.

                “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

                by skohayes on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 04:07:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And, considering that the (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eyesbright, Ahianne, Larsstephens

                  term "war crime" is carefully defined in numerous international conventions, definitions which have been refined and interpreted by actual trial and appellate international tribunals in ways which have no relation to what ZR is talking about.  

                  With the Decision Points Theater, the George W. Bush Presidential Library becomes the very first Presidential Library to feature a Fiction Section.

                  by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 07:53:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                    The UN is investigating Obama for actual, prosecutable war crimes. The bombing of funeral attendees, and first responders, did occur, and are war crimes. This debate has been delved into on countless occasions here.

                    And Obama forgave actual, prosecutable war crimes.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:33:07 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The only nonsense is the idea that (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      virginislandsguy, Larsstephens

                      the UN Human Rights Council has any jurisdiction on war crimes.  That resides with the ICC and with the Security Council.

                      With the Decision Points Theater, the George W. Bush Presidential Library becomes the very first Presidential Library to feature a Fiction Section.

                      by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:41:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The UNHRC is part of the (0+ / 0-)

                        UN General Assembly. The Human Rights Council is an investigative body. The UN Security Council is an enforcement body.

                        The UN High Commissioner on Human Rights can refer to the Security Council cases of violations of human rights. The Security Council, in turn, can refer the cases to the ICC when war crimes are involved.

                        Human rights violations may or may not also be war crimes. Generally, the UN Human Rights Council covers human rights violations, while the ICC covers war crimes (which usually are human rights violations as well).  

                        The UN High Commisioner can also refer cases to the International Court of Justice.

                        So, there are different bodies who handle complaints of violations, and different tribunals, depending on the nature of the violations. And there isn't a lot any of these bodies could do to the US in terms of disciplinary actions, considering the clout of the US. But the mere fact of being called out for war crimes by the UN is quite damning.

                        The fact that the UN Special Rapporteur is investigating human rights violations committed by the US is remarkable considering the enormous influence the US has on the UN, including veto power in the Security Council.

                        Basically, based on news reports of US killings of first responders and attendees of funerals, as well as the high number of civilian deaths in drone strikes, the UN officials are calling these acts human rights violations and war crimes if their investigations corroborate the reports of journalists (which haven't been discredited and are based on multiple sources).

                        So, the US, according to credible reports, has committed war crimes and human rights abuses.

                        Furthermore, the act of NOT prosecuting war crimes committed by state officials is in itself a war crime. Get that? When Obama decided to forgo prosecution of torture, he committed a war crime, since the most important part of the international treaties is enforcement by signatories.

                        Still, it doesn't surprise me that devotees of the administration would try to trivialize and minimize the war crimes by calling into question international jurisdictional issues. And that speaks volumes.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 01:00:11 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  To put this more simply (0+ / 0-)

                        The fact that the UN Special Rapporteur is investigating the US for human rights violations based on civilian murders (which can also be war crimes), and the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights wants the US investigated, means they believe the violations fall within their investigative jurisdiction.

                        And since they are willing to stick their necks out against the most powerful State in world history, indicates they believe they have a case worth pursuing.

                        I doubt much will come of it, considering the enormous clout of the US, but this is highly significant.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 01:09:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  When it's deliberate (0+ / 0-)

                  It's a war crime. Do we really need to debate the facts all over again? This has been answered time and again on dkos.

                  The Geneva Conventions have been posted here to prove it.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:36:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  If everyone only "understood the truth" like you (9+ / 0-)

        do, then the world would be a fine place, I guess.

        Yes, majorities are sometimes quite wrong; however, this is our system of government. What would you replace it with? Only people who agree with ZhenRen?

        You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

        by sewaneepat on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:14:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The majority of Americans rejected Communism (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens

        long ago.

        Oh, I think if the "majority" really understood the truth, they would agree with me.
        ZehnRen, you are a self-defined Communist. So how do you think you represent majority American opinion? By your own description you are a member of the American political fringe.
        •  I don't claim to represent majority opinion (0+ / 0-)

          I was referring to a specific issue, and how I think people would respond if they knew the truth.

          Conforming to majority opinion is rather unintelligent. Argumentum ad populum.

          And I'm an anarcho-socialist, not a run-of-the-mill authoritarian communist.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 08:06:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  If Obama is a war criminal (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        emelyn
        Hidden by:
        ZhenRen

        So is Clinton. So is Roosevelt. There is no president who has ordered military action that has not sometimes involved injury or death to innocent bystanders.

        •  It depends on circumstances (0+ / 0-)

          When it is deliberate targeting of civilians, it is a war crime, and there is no excuse for it.

          And if you excuse that, you're excusing and condoning murder. Since advocating murder is hide ratable... donuts.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 08:03:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, what bollocks (0+ / 0-)

            I really don't understand how anyone could read my actual comment as condoning murder. What you've done is to HR me for comments you imagine I might write in the future. Nicely done!  I've seen quite a few abuses of ratings privileges, but never anything quite so overwrought as that.

            •  I removed the hide rate (0+ / 0-)

              But the point stands: The Obama administration condoned targeting of first responders and attendees of funerals, in the theory that more "terrorists" would be among those who came in to help the wounded, or attend the funeral.

              I find this practice to be deliberate murder. And it is a war crime. And the UN Special Rapporteur agrees.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 08:24:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Seems I can't remove it now, the time (0+ / 0-)

                allotted must have just expired. Button didn't work.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 08:28:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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