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View Diary: UPDATE x3: LED Lightbulbs Finally Ready for Prime Time! (282 comments)

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  •  A couple of questions (3+ / 0-)

    1) I heard on Fox News that Obama had banned incandescant light bulbs, so where are you buying yours from (as hypothetically laid out in the diary)?

    2) and could this be a problem?

    Ogunseitan and other UC-Irvine researchers tested several types of LEDs, including those used as Christmas lights, traffic lights, car headlights and brake lights. What did they find? Some of the worst offenders were low-intensity red LEDs, which were found to contain up to eight times the amount of lead, a known neurotoxin, allowed by California state law and which, according to researchers, “exhibit significant cancer and noncancer potentials due to the high content of arsenic and lead.” Meanwhile, white LEDs contain the least lead, but still harbor large amounts of nickel, another heavy metal that causes allergic reactions in as many as one in five of us upon exposure. And the copper found in some LEDs can pose an environmental threat if it accumulates in rivers and lakes where it can poison aquatic life.
    from Scientific American
    •  The law, phasing out standard incandescent light.. (13+ / 0-)

      .....bulbs................................. was signed by George Bush.

      “I used to be disgusted....Now I try to be amused" --Elvis-- My first attempt at a diary.. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/28/1197573/-Park-Avenue

      by PlinytheWelder on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 11:43:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK, but that still doesn't help me wrt continuing (0+ / 0-)

        to buy them over the next 25 years . . . .

        •  You're not serious about Fox are you? (4+ / 0-)

          I just bought some incandescent light bulbs in the Internet this past week. 10 watt bulbs for a specific use.   A quick check shows this vendor sells common shapes and types of incandescents.

          I remember the conservative hue and cry about not being able to buy any more incandescents, and all the stockpiling that occurred.  Same thing happened with ammo.

          With the same results.   Just more trumped up hysteria because Obama.

          And as conservatives still buy incandescents and ammo all these years later, memories are non-existent about their previous outrage.   Benghazi. IRS.  etc.

        •  Incandescent bulbs are not being phased out, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson, Mr Robert, Lawrence

          but if LEDs improve much more, I expect to see manufacturers eventually phase them out as non-saleable.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 12:19:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are always suckers. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            enhydra lutris, Calamity Jean

            "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

            by nosleep4u on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 01:18:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Yes they are... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            enhydra lutris, KenBee

            75W and 100W A19 (standard light bulbs) were phased out last year. Old stocks can continue to be sold until they are
            exhausted. 60W and 40W A19's are scheduled to be phased out next year.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            Yes, energy efficient halogen A19 bulbs are available that act much like the older ones but are no where near as efficient as LED bulbs or even CFL's.

            Work lights, appliance bulbs, 3way and other specialty bulbs will continue to be sold, but standard A19 light bulbs ARE being phased out.

            And yes, I do sell LED and other bulbs for a living.

            “I used to be disgusted....Now I try to be amused" --Elvis-- My first attempt at a diary.. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/28/1197573/-Park-Avenue

            by PlinytheWelder on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:55:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes and no. What has ahappened is that there (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KenBee

              are efficiency requirements imposed on A19 bulbs for any given luminosity. Thus the old 60 watt A19 incandescent has been replaced by a 57 watt A 19 incandescent. It is the oppinion of somebody at Wikipedia that the standards will soon become impossible to meet, though at least one manufacturer is claiming to have already hit 50 a percent energy efficiency increase.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

              by enhydra lutris on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 07:36:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  the market for Incandescents is dying. (2+ / 0-)

            CFLs have been killing their market and now LED is really killing them.

            I think Incandescents will remain as a niche product much
            as  Vacuum Tubes lingered as a niche product in the 70's and 80's.  I suspect Flea markets and yard sales will have cases of Incandescents for decades as aging old right wingers head off to the nursing home.

            •  I hope so. (0+ / 0-)

              I stockpiled 100s, but there are still some things they are best used for.  LEDs haven't come down enough to replace them, and CFLs can't be used outdoors in sub-freezing temperatures.  And there are some old-tech hacks which use incandescents deliberately as a good low-level heat source.

              I hope that after the market has effectively changed, they'll be able to relax that law a bit and allow the public to buy what they want for specialized purposes.  The costs of a niche market will ensure that they aren't overused without good reason.

            •  There will always be a need for incandescent (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ender

              bulbs for oven lights, easy bake ovens and egg hatcheries.

    •  Answers (8+ / 0-)

      1.  "Obama" didn't ban incandescent bulbs.  The regulation merely requires a certain efficiency in general purpose bulbs.  There cut ally are incandescent bulbs that meet this requirement.  BTW the regs were formulated un Bush.  So he's your bogey man. Fox "forgot" to tell you hat.

      2.  Note that only certain bulbs have the problem.  This is easily solved by tightening up the regulations.  Hmm. Maybe you could tell your Fox buddies to demand that these regulations be expedited.  Fat chance.  

    •  Your first mistake was watching FOX (9+ / 0-)

      First of all the law was passed in 2007.  Second it didn't ban incandescent bulbs, it just required bulbs be more efficient.  So Obama didn't ban shit and only a FOX viewing moron would seriously buy that right wing bullshit.

      As for heavy metals, it's virtually impossible to manufacture ANY bulb without some metal in it.  Is the technology perfect?  Probably not.  Then again teh incandescent has had over 110 years to be perfected.  The other advantage is that when a LED bulb breaks it doesb't spray the metal out.  If there are some heavy metals in the bulbs in many cases those metals can be replaced by less toxic substitutes.  Finally, unless you break a bulb, that bulb will last 20 or so years so the amount of heavy metals you'll have to properly dispose of is minimal when compared to other bulbs.  I would say that's a small inconvenience considering you're saving over $200 PER BULB over the llifetime of those bulbs.    

      This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

      by DisNoir36 on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 11:55:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm actually not that worried about the toxicity (0+ / 0-)

        most healthy people are rather robust.

        The bigger issue here is how some people are willing to nitpick some technologies to death why unquestioningly embracing others, even to the point of lying about them in their diaries.

        I just find it puzzling (and intriguing!)

        •  I think you're going too far (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KenBee, greatferm, Rashaverak

          when you suggest that people LIE in their eagerness to promote their favorite tech.  It's really much more of a selective attention to detail.  But they can get FAR too emotional about it (not just here -- one of my best friends in the off-line world came close to screaming at me on this same issue less than a week ago).  I think that the writings of John Michael Greer on The Archdruid Report (LINK) concerning the ideology of Progress and Civil Religions have a lot of relevance if you're really interested.

          The bottom line is that "science" has taken over much of the role of religion in American civil society, and theological discussions can get very intense.  Challenging a "breakthrough" technology on pragmatic grounds isn't a comment on the current state of the technology or its suitability for your purposes; it's a value-laden attack on the soteriology of Progress.

        •  Have you balanced the use of metals in the LED (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rashaverak

          circuits with the reduction in heavy metal pollution (especially mercury) from power plants (especially coal-fired)?  That's not something Fox News would mention, gien they're gung-ho about supporting coal.  Fox blames Obama for a "war on coal", neglecting to mention that coal can't compete with cheaper natural gas from fracking (which Fox also supports, unless it shows Obama in a good light).

          A Fairleigh University study showed that people who watch Fox are LESS well informed than people who watch no news at all.  In short, Fox is unreliable as a news source- they're a far right wing propaganda outlet.  Citing them does not help anyone's case.

    •  Home Depot. It's where I bought my first one in (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, Mr Robert

      years for an external lamp just a week ago.

    •  Thank you for the link! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee, greatferm

      I went to the Scientific American site and read the article and comments. From comments it seems toxicity is problematic not for the home owner, but for the land fill.  They ground up the lights and 'perculated' the grounds to see what would leach--not something we are likely to "try at home."

      And as commenters pointed out, you are unlikely to find any lighting fixtures of any kind without copper involved, and our cell phones raise bigger recycling concerns.

      But they do need to be regulated for lead...and maybe best to "buy American" to avoid unregulated producers.

      "I wonder why Congress again in a new poll out today--11% approval rating. (It's) because they don't work for us. They work for the sons-of-bitches who pay them." Cenk Uygur

      by Dave in Columbus on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:04:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Sci Am article doesn't say that about landfill (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Brainwrap, JerryNA, Rashaverak

        It says: "LEDs are currently not considered toxic by law and can be disposed of in regular landfills."

        That was the only reference to landfills that I could find.

        The Scientific American article is embarrassingly bad, so people should stop quoting it. The comments on the Sci Am site say things like, "it's not 1st April, is it?" and " I can't think of anything that uses power that does not have copper."

        The one verifiable toxic claim made in the article is that "low-intensity red LEDs, which were found to contain up to eight times the amount of lead, a known neurotoxin, allowed by California state law"

        If that was true, you couldn't bloody well sell the LEDs could you?

        My theory is that they tested decades-old LEDs that were manufactured before current standards were in place.

        Red LEDs were the first that were widely available. The joke was that you could buy LEDs in three colors: Red, redder and reddest.

        I am sure that there are plenty of consumer products in people's homes that were made with decades-old LEDs, but I do not believe that these LED's are currently on sale as electronic parts. First of all, you are legally required to tell the buyer that these parts are full of lead. (Probably not for finished consumer junk in the USA)

        Secondly, the European Union enacted standards in 2006 restricting the hazardous content of electronic products. This was called the RoHS directive. (Pronounced, row hoss) Anyone who designs electronic or electrical devices knows this. It was one of the biggest changes to the industry in my career. What is the first thing on the list that they wanted to reduce? Lead.

        The European Union standard is sort of like Texas standards for textbooks. Who wants to design a product that you can't sell in the EU?

        RoHS allows one part per thousand of lead.

        Most LEDs, just like everything else, are made in China, so there is no reason to exclude them from your search.

        I just went to an electronics part supplier, Digikey, and did a query on the different white LEDs that they have in stock. It doesn't return an exact number but with 25 per page, there were 58 pages. I checked the box to limit this to RoHS compliant devices: again there were 58 pages. I limited it further to lead-free devices: again there were 58 pages.

        So if you see the CE symbol on an LED light bulb, it is guaranteed to be low in toxic metals. Sometimes there is a RoHS mark, too.

        There has been some fear mongering about nickel and copper in this diary's comments. You probably have copper fittings in the pipes that deliver your drinking water. Most silvery metals around you contain nickel. There is no directive to keep these metals out of landfills.

    •  I'm guessing you're not planning (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee, Ender, Brainwrap, JerryNA, Rashaverak

      To disassemble the bulbs and lick the heavy metals in the electronic ballast. We know how to recycle lead and other heavy metals, so work on getting your community to require recycling sometime before 2038, and you should be all set.

      The entire state of VT requires all electronics, CFLs, thermostats, and batteries to be recycled. I'm pretty sure we can get the law updated sometime over the next 25 years to add LEDs to the list.

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