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View Diary: Anatomy of Hate: Dissecting ODS Comments (88 comments)

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  •  Here is the conundrum (7+ / 0-)

    he gets credit for the good and must never be mentioned when the bad is exposed.

    You are right

    it's impossible to get into any reasoned conversation about it here.
    Wonder why that is?

    There are no sacred cows.

    by LaEscapee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:06:10 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I just don't agree with that (10+ / 0-)

      I think when he screws up he is culpable. When he does good he's worthy of praise. I don't see the problem. What I do see is screaming and rending of clothes to the extreme for a screw up or even a just a move that we don't like. I also see people jumping to defend the indefensible when he really fucks up. That's why it's impossible to actually debate any of it.

      When you take a stand and pack up then you can't allow your position to be questioned. You become dogmatic. It doesn't matter if you are dogmatically pro or con, it's the same. I can't praise him if you are pissed at him and you can't criticize if I'm all in for him. There is no middle ground under those circumstances.

      "Humidity built the snowman. Sunshine brought him down" John Prine

      by high uintas on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:18:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with this and have done so (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassiodorus, Sandino, Words In Action
        I think when he screws up he is culpable. When he does good he's worthy of praise
        There is middle ground and many here seek it but when egregious actions are exposed we get tripe like what you just read. Attempts to distract from the issue that should be at the forefront of the conversation. It becomes about the people that stepped forward or had the nerve to speak out or about the person that is responsible and becomes a distraction and dare I say a propagandist effort to change the conversation from the issue. What we get are repeated attempts of people flinging stuff at the wall hoping something may stick. It has been done for years and has actually been ramped up since 9/11. your wit us or agin us is bullshit. I want honesty I want transparency I want my government to respect the constitution and I want them to actually care about something other than which donor they should appease.

        I want people to wake up, sorry f that is too much to ask.

        I look forward when the change of residence happens because maybe then we get back to discussion of what the government is doing, the fans will leave, and we can return to discussing intelligently exactly why people are pissed.

        There are no sacred cows.

        by LaEscapee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:34:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The example the Troubadour used (6+ / 0-)

          is a perfect example of the kind of over the top criticism that no one can reasonably take on. IMO he's right in pointing it out.

          The things you list that you want are things that I totally agree with, honesty and transparency are important. But I believe that we all can agree he can't just open the doors and show everything at any moment, the raid on OBL for example needed secrecy and security to carry out before the honesty and transparency part.

          I want my President to respect the Constitution and mourn what has happened to the Fourth Amendment in particular. I do have to say that most of the damage done has been done by SCOTUS and lower courts, but I want him to do better than he has done.

          As for the money in politics and the power it carries, it surely isn't confined to the White House and it damn sure isn't going to get better until we as a people demand it. With a country infested with Teahadist idiots it's going to take a while.

          I have to say that I agree with Troubadour on this, the two sides aren't equal in the way they are represented here and the critics allow for some fairly long stretches of hyperbole when it comes to their barbs. Far worse than anything that comes from those who admire the President.

          "Humidity built the snowman. Sunshine brought him down" John Prine

          by high uintas on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:53:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I would just like to add that (7+ / 0-)

        I don't see the sides as being equivalently unreasonable.  There are people, as shown in the diary, who literally believe the absolute, utmost extreme negative about Barack Obama and acknowledge no positive.  I've never seen the opposite - I've never seen a defender of the administration who didn't have their own criticisms.  But I've seen plenty of ODS sufferers who can't think of a single progressive thing this administration has accomplished - not one.  Doesn't matter how often they're given lists of them, it just slides off like oil on water.  

        "She's terse - I can be terse. Once, in flight school, I was laconic." -Wash

        by Troubadour on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:34:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lily Ledbetter (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Words In Action

          you take it from there and please don't use the forcible insurance giveaway or DADT.

          There are no sacred cows.

          by LaEscapee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:40:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I will indeed use the healthcare expansion (7+ / 0-)

            because I disagree with your characterization of it.  Millions of people who couldn't afford healthcare now can, and millions more can afford it better.  And why the hell wouldn't I cite DADT?

            "She's terse - I can be terse. Once, in flight school, I was laconic." -Wash

            by Troubadour on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:42:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Many never could and can't and (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sandino, Words In Action

              ENDA

              There are no sacred cows.

              by LaEscapee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:45:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You'll have to be a little more descriptive. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Patate

                "She's terse - I can be terse. Once, in flight school, I was laconic." -Wash

                by Troubadour on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:47:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are tiresome (3+ / 0-)

                  A few points

                  Public option/medicare for all

                  Kowtow to teh gays for reelection then ignore.

                  Have you figured out what 7 vs' 3 is yet?

                  I'm not going further because you are blind to facts and the reality that is all around you.

                  Like I said I can't wait until there is an address change so we can back to real discussion of things that matter to the world. Of course I do expect you and others to defend the illegalities and deception of the next inhabitant whether it be an R or D.If not you might seem to be hypocrites.

                  There are no sacred cows.

                  by LaEscapee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:56:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Funny, I find intelligent discussion invigorating. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ahianne, Patate, jdsnebraska

                    You might want to examine why you find it exhausting.

                    Public option/medicare for all
                    You're blaming him for what Congress wouldn't pass?  Umm, you did see my diary on Derangement Civics, right?  The branch of government that passes laws is called Legislative, not "Obama Failing to Pass Laws."  It consists of hundreds of actual human beings who make their own decisions based on their own agendas.  People we elect.  So frankly, unless the President vetoed a public/option or Medicare For All bill that passed Congress, we have a lot more to answer for as voters on the subject than he does as President.
                    Kowtow to teh gays for reelection then ignore.
                    Ah, the Derangement is strong in this comment.  When he helps gay people it's "kowtowing," when he still helps gay people but isn't able to miracle his way past Congress, he's "ignoring" them.  All possible sets of events must be interpreted negatively.
                    Have you figured out what 7 vs' 3 is yet?
                    I haven't even heard of it.
                    I'm not going further because you are blind to facts and the reality that is all around you.
                    I just showed you facts and reality.  The only reason you're even bothering to explain yourself in this level of detail is because I demanded it, and you're still failing utterly to justify your position.
                    Like I said I can't wait until there is an address change so we can back to real discussion of things that matter to the world.
                    You can get back to "real" discussions any time you please.  By all means, resist the impulses of ODS and talk about issues and action-oriented solutions.  I do that regularly, but I generally don't see ODS sufferers participating in those diaries.  They seem to think substance is a distraction from the real priority.

                    "She's terse - I can be terse. Once, in flight school, I was laconic." -Wash

                    by Troubadour on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 10:17:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Okay its official. You are my hero. (5+ / 0-)

                      As a target of years and years of serious verbal abuse and manipulation, and now regularly being triggered and tongue tied in the face of it, my only tools have been to get away from any perpetrators in my environment or use a phrase I picked up in my healing research "That's what you say".  I have used that a few times on DK when I felt like I was back in that vicious cycle with someone here.

                      To see someone dispassionate like yourself (which is no longer possible for me as a long term target) use logic and critical thinking to address the fallacies, to see the decompensation take place on the part of the perp as the interchange moves forward has me riveted.  I have rarely seen this level of understanding and wisdom that you display in the face of this kind of hatred.  Sometimes gifted comics with wonderful senses of irony can accomplish it.  Every once in a long while a person comes along that can speak truth to power in such a fair and wise way either by training or by natural gifts.  To see this done by someone benevolent is a miraculous thing.  There are glib con men (like Gingrich) that have a great verbal facility to return jibe for jibe and they really frustrate me but you are one of the good guys.

                      Blessings on you!

                  •  I see your point but what if the next POTUS is (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    freakofsociety

                    A Republican like Rubio or Christie or any other GOPer. ?  

                    What then ? Any progress we are seeing, even small bits of progress will be wiped out as well as SCOTUS vacancies will be a nightmare if next POTUS is a republican. I shudder and fear for minorities, women , LGBT and so on.

                    Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

                    by wishingwell on Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 10:45:27 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  What I respond to often, as I am a firm supporter (6+ / 0-)

        of the President, is the assumption in diaries and comments that everyone feels the same way about events or decisions the President makes.  Its the same thing that happens when I have to call my Teaparty Rep's office on an issue.  I am told "Americans" want the whatever the Teaparty wants, and I always want to ask, so what am I chopped liver?

        Its the same here.  I always try to emphasize that my comments are my humble opinion so it doesn't sound like I assume others see things the same way.  When I am attacked for my respect for the President, which I would argue is based on his actions over time, I am told I am a sheeple.  So how is that different than being attacked from the right?  Its not, frankly.  Same problem.

    •  No, the conundrum is (8+ / 0-)

      when anyone in his administration does wrong, it's his fault, personally.

      When he does the right thing, it's because he's doing it for craven political reasons and not because he actually wants to do the right thing.

      Because when the conclusion that Obama is evil is actually the premise, the facts are molded to fit the framework.

      We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

      by raptavio on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 09:51:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He is not evil (3+ / 0-)

        he is compromised. And I am sorry to be the one to break it to you but it is his AG that pushes this shit or doesn't. Don't give me the separate entity line either because you know that hasn't been true for decades" "He can't because the R's", "see he teh awesome, bestest evah", "not under his control", "it was his idea".

        That shit get's old

        There are no sacred cows.

        by LaEscapee on Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 10:02:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then why are ODS criticisms never phrased (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          high uintas, Ahianne, Patate

          to reflect the reality of the real problem - why are you people always saying "Obama won't prosecute" or "Obama is prosecuting" rather than criticizing him for keeping on Eric Holder?  Your claim about the modern functioning of the Justice Department has no basis.  You're still starting from the PREMISE that Obama is wrong and then deriving secondary beliefs about how government works from that opinion.

          "She's terse - I can be terse. Once, in flight school, I was laconic." -Wash

          by Troubadour on Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 04:22:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because Obama is the head (0+ / 0-)

            of the government (the bureaucracy, the military and the entire national security apparatus are executive) during his entire term of office. It's his baby, his is the buck-stop desk.

            True Believers always blame the last guy when things go crazy on their party's fearless leader. I'm sure you recall the Shrub blaming 9-11 on Clinton. Now in his second term, we see Obama die-hards trying to blame every scandal on the Shrub. Never fails to be asserted, always fails to be legitimate.

            Not to worry. Four years from now Obama will still be getting the blame for whatever goes wrong. From everyone except those of us who are much more likely to blame the executive for executive overreach, abject failures, and abuses of power.

            •  Except that's an oversimplification. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau, freakofsociety
              Obama is the head of the government.
              His relationship is not the same to every federal institution, especially the DOJ.  Attorneys General serve at the pleasure of the President, but political interference in prosecutorial decisions could be grounds for Abuse of Power impeachment.

              Yeah, see, the thing about that is....(runs away)

              by Troubadour on Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 07:59:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sure it could. (0+ / 0-)

                When was the last time a POTUS was impeached for Abuse of Power? Richard Nixon got slammed for Obstruction of Justice, resigned before votes could be taken. Bill Clinton for Perjury as well as Obstruction, was cleared by the Senate.

                Abuse of Power would certainly apply here, but it would also apply across the board to some congresscritters and senators whose job it was to stay on top of this and keep it from turning criminal. Can't touch the DoD or the NSA, which belongs to DoD. Or CIA and the rest of The Acronyms. Even their damned budgets are Top Secret, though that's a good place to look for this nation's plundered wealth. Nobody's going to defund this juggernaut. Our erstwhile representatives all have way too much to hide, they're far more vulnerable to this sort of shit than we somewhat average people are.

                The direction of the DoJ is indeed politically determined, as much as the directions of all other executive agencies and departments. Sure, they are bureaucracies run by people who serve the government more than they serve the public. But government is shaped to a significant degree by who's sitting at the buck-stop desk.

                If Obama didn't want Holder to pursue whistleblowers under espionage charges, Holder wouldn't be doing that. Obama would have replaced him by now. Obama's "pleasure" is to stifle dissent as forcefully as he can get away with.

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