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View Diary: Victory: All we ever wanted was for Coy's school to treat her the same as other little girls. (57 comments)

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  •  No... but you do need to establish reasonably (0+ / 0-)

    standard rules.

    It can't be "I know a transgender person when I see one."

    The Supreme Court has tried that with obscenity and has just made a total mess of that part of the law.

    In addition, we do sometimes penalize people because they want relief that requires the courts to get involved in areas that they should not.

    For example, it is a well defined principal that the Courts will not adjudicate on any matter that involves interpreting or determining the requirements of a religion.  This impacts people - for example in foreign marriage cases where countries allow marriage under religious law and a US court must then determine if a couple is legally married or legally divorced.

    Similarly, unless we can set up some reasonably clear guidelines, adjudicating these transgender cases may require courts to make impossible distinctions between people.  Can a biological and legal woman live like a man, wear men's clothes, drink beer and belch with her bros, have sex with women, and watch MMA?  Well, then it seems that by your own logic a biological man who is legally a woman can do the same thing.  So how can you require a biological man who wants to legally be a woman to wear women's clothes or behave in any way like a stereotypical woman?  I don't see how you can.

    As people see the advantages of gaming this (not just locker room kicks, but what about athletic scholarships for male high school jocks who aren't good enough to make it onto a Division 1 school's men's team but are good enough for the women's team) how will you legally distinguish between sincere and insincere transsexuals?

    Perhaps you can't and you need to go 100% unisex.  That would probably work for bathrooms, but what about locker rooms?  And what does that do to Title IX and the general attempt to make activities like school sports more accessible to women?

    It is easy to celebrate one case, but have any of you really thought through the implications?

    •  That's why we have therapists we see. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, Avilyn

      That's why we establish a history by living in the target gender.

      You are seeking to measure something that is not measurable perhaps.

      Well, how do you measure someone's religion?

      •  Are you suggesting that it is required for a (0+ / 0-)

        transgender person to see a therapist to be accepted as legally transgender?

        That's why we have therapists we see.
        Say this person says that s/he is happy and well adjusted and does not need a therapist?
        That's why we establish a history by living in the target gender.
        What does that mean?  How does a woman have to live?  Do women have to wear pink dresses and high heels?  Do they have to date men?  Do they have to drink white wine instead of beer?  Haven't we already established the principal that a woman with hairy legs and a mustache who wears jeans, drinks beer, watches football, and hits on other women is still a woman?
    •  And why don't you try living as a woman? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, Avilyn

      And if you wouldn't, why not?

      •  Sure. I'll wear men's jeans, chase girls, and (0+ / 0-)

        drink beer.

        Are you suggesting that real women don't do that?  

        Are you sure you want to go there?

        •  I'm suggesting that there is a lot more to... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          terrybuck, Avilyn

 as the sex which is not your birth sex than what you wear and which sex you are attracted to. It also involves a public declaration of your intent, changing your documents and trying to live in a culture which is not going to accept what you have done.

          •  Well, that's how you probably go about it if you (0+ / 0-)

            are sincere.

            It also involves a public declaration of your intent, changing your documents and trying to live in a culture which is not going to accept what you have done.
            So, you publicly declare your intent to be a woman.  Done.  Do you have to publish it in the paper?  Announce it every time you walk into a room?  Seems that once it's done it's done.

            In fact, can you even require that?  Are people required to announce their sex to the world or is this a special rule for transgender people?

            changing your documents
            Is that required?  The child in this case did not change her birth certificate and I'm not at all clear on how you get sex on a passport changed legally.
            trying to live in a culture which is not going to accept what you have done
            Seems to me that the vast majority of people will assume that someone who looks like a big hairy male football player is a big hairy male football player and that the only time this person is going to have any trouble is when s/he presents documents claiming to be a woman or walks into a women's restroom or locker room.

            In fact, I just came up with a new reason for a person to do this.

            Just keep joining gyms, going to swimming pools, etc., walking into the women's locker room, and suing when people try to stop you.  Bet you could make a very nice living off the settlements.

            •  Do you really think you are making ... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              aitchdee, rserven, FogCityJohn

              ...a serious argument, or do you just like typing 'big hairy male football player?'

              •  Why do you think people won't game (0+ / 0-)

                the system?

                I do think I am making a serious argument.  But yes, I do like to provide concrete and vivid examples - I think it makes it much easier for people to understand the point than if you keep it abstract.

                Fake women in sports are not without precedent -

                Hermann Ratjen disguised himself as a woman by tightly binding his genitals to his body while competing in the women’s high jump at the 1936 Berlin Olympics. Ratjen finished fourth in the competition, and later set a groundbreaking world record at the European Championships in 1938. But despite wearing a dress, Ratjen was revealed as a man after two athletics fans spotted him with facial hair at a train station in Germany. A doctor was called, and a brief examination confirmed he had male genitals. Ratjen never competed again, and in 1957 admitted he was actually a man, claiming the Nazi regime had forced him to compete as a woman. “For three years I lived the life of a girl. It was most dull,” he said.
                There have also been cases where whites have pretended to be black to benefit from affirmative action:
                Philip and Paul Malone are fair-haired, fair-complexioned identical twins who worked for the Boston Fire Department for 10 years. Last month both were dismissed when a state agency ruled that they had lied on their job applications: They had contended they were black. The finding has sent shock waves through the city government, touching off charges that employees of other agencies may have misused plans designed to remedy past discrimination against black and Hispanic workers.

                Last week the Administration of Mayor Raymond L. Flynn began to investigate the race and ethnic background of the hundreds of workers hired as members of minority groups over the past decade by the Fire, Police and School Departments.


                But in 1976, according to their lawyer, Nicholas Foundas, their mother found a sepia-tinted photograph of their great-grandmother, who, she told them, was black. In 1977, they reapplied to take the test, contending they were black.

                Apparently Soul Man was not just a movie.

                The actual case is quite interesting.


                The hearing officer applied the following criteria: (i) visual observation of physical features; (ii) documentary evidence establishing black ancestry, such as birth certificates; and (iii) evidence that the Malones or their families held themselves out to be black and are considered black in the community. She concluded that the Malones had failed conspicuously to establish any of the three criteria.
                By this standard, Elizabeth Warren would not have qualified as Native American, at least until her Native ancestry became an issue in the election campaign.
            •  The child in this case had changed her passport... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mortifyd, FogCityJohn

              ...and state ID.  Birth Certificates are in many places restricted from being changed.

              If you think you can make a living off of being transgender, have at it.  The vast majority of us transpeople live at or below the poverty level.

              •  Do you have any evidence that there was any (0+ / 0-)

                official change to the passport?

                Or did the parents just apply for a female passport and ID and no one checked?

                If you think you can make a living off of being transgender, have at it.  The vast majority of us transpeople live at or below the poverty level.
                Are you a biologically male transgender female person?  Do you live in a state that has laws preventing discrimination against transgender people?  If not move to one.

                Now, join a woman's gym, walk into the woman's locker room, and take off your clothes, making sure everyone gets a good look at the male equipment.

                Women run out, huss and fuss.  You show ID.  Gym still wants you out or offers a privae locker room - their female patrons are refusing to use their locker room.  

                You sue.

                Repeat as necessary to achieve desired income level.

                What's wrong with this plan?

        •  Why not just admit that you are a bigot... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          terrybuck, Avilyn

          ...when it comes to transfolk and move on?  You clearly have an extremely poor opinion of us.  Why do you feel the need to share it?

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