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  •  The plan should be to minimise violence globally (4+ / 0-)

    so that if what we are doing causes in the aggregate more damage than whatever plans we suspect our preemptive strikes might have prevented, that makes us the terrorist we need to make the greatest effort to protect against.

    We should allow that people who kidnap, torture, assassinate and murder are criminals and should be treated like criminals, arrested, informed of their rights, provided legal counsel, tried in a court of law, allowed to make their case and to appeal it if they think the people that heard their case weren't listening to the right things, before we indefinitely detain them, execute them or drop a drone on them.

    If those people are us we ought to appreciate having those
    levels of fairness in our treatment.

    Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

    by rktect on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 07:34:38 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  i.e., what civilized nations already do (9+ / 0-)
      We should allow that people who kidnap, torture, assassinate and murder are criminals and should be treated like criminals, arrested, informed of their rights, provided legal counsel, tried in a court of law, allowed to make their case and to appeal it if they think the people that heard their case weren't listening to the right things, before we indefinitely detain them, execute them or drop a drone on them.
      Our biggest mistake---the thing that started this whole monstrous mess in the first place, was our decision, as a society, that terrorists don't deserve trials, and that we should just bomb them and kill them all without any of the legal niceties. "We're at WAR, dammit !!!!!"

      Once we decided that terrorism is a MILITARY issue rather than a LAW ENFORCEMENT issue, the entire pathway to the permanent militarized national security state was laid and paved.

      And some of us were already pointing that out on September 12, 2001.

      •  Actually it was the end of November 2001 (0+ / 0-)

        That a CIA agent Michael Spann who was assigned to SOG was in the process of helping a warlord  named General Dostum and his military garrison execute prisoners at the Qala-i-Jangi fortress after they surrendered at  the battle of Masr al Sharif was swarmed by the prisoners and physically torn limb from limb.

        As Spann was getting physically torn apart by them his partner Dave "Dawson" Tyson  an Uzbek language specialist called in air strikes from Tash Kent on a satellited phone while a German documentary film crew there to investigate the allegations that had accused his troops of human rights violations of the Taliban prisoners got the whole thing on video

        After the surviving prisoners withdrew to a lower level it was flooded to try and drive them out and then the survivors of that were collected including John Walker Lindh an American.

        After Spahn's death and the discovery of Lind, General Dostum, the CIA force extender was told "to take the gloves off" by one of President Cheney's neo-con's. Lind was left with his wounds untended for a week in one of the shipping containers and then "interviewed" after being given morphine.

        In July 2009, The NY Times reported on Dostums human rights abuses with particulars giving as example the report that according to anonymous witnesses they interviewed, "over a three-day period, Taliban prisoners were stuffed into closed metal shipping containers and given no food or water; many suffocated while being trucked to the prison. Other prisoners were killed when guards shot into the containers. The bodies were said to have been buried in a mass grave in Dasht-i-Leili, a stretch of desert just outside Sheberghan.

        Starting in the 70's as a union organizer at a state-owned gas refinery in Sheberghan, Jowzjan Province, General Dostum who was originally from Jalalabad came to power and built his reputation and support in the mid 80's when he was first recruited by the CIA to to help establish the Northern Alliance and fight the Russians.

        The Northern Alliance, was established in late 1996 by Dostum, Ahmad Shah Massoud and Karim Khalili against the Pakistan-backed Taliban in the Jalalabad region but in the region of Masar al Sharif where Dostum was in charge after the Russians left he went into drug smuggling and used his mujahadin to extort supplies and labor from the villages between Masar al Sharif and Herat.

        In November 2009, it was reported that the British were pushing for talks between the Afghan government and the Shura. 'Major General Richard Barrons said negotiations with the senior echelons of the Afghan Taliban leadership council – the Quetta shura – were being looked at, alongside the reintegration of insurgency fighters into civilian life.In his first interview since arriving in Afghanistan to begin talks with "moderate" Taliban fighters, Barrons said British officials were backing extensive talks between Karzai's government and the Quetta shura, which is led by Mullah Omar and is responsible for directing much of the fighting against British forces in Helmand province.'[25]

        Early January 2010, some commanders from the Quetta Shura held secret exploratory talks with Kai Eide to discuss peace terms, as emerged end of that month during the International Conference on Afghanistan in London. The Shura had sought a meeting with the United Nations envoy, which took place in Dubai on January 8, 2010. This was the first such meeting between the UN and alleged senior members of the Taliban, suggesting that peace talks had revived since exploratory contacts between emissaries of the Kabul government and the Taliban in Saudi Arabia in 2009 broke down. It was not clear how significant a faction had showed up in Dubai or how serious they were. A western official confirmed that there were indications of splits in the Taliban over the prospect of a settlement.[26][27] Supporters of former presidential candidate Abdullah Abdullah predicted that negotiations could fail because the Karzai government was too weak, and other critics warned that trying to buy off insurgents created a "moral hazard" of rewarding combatants who had killed Western troops and local civilians.[28] Taliban sources denied that there had been such a meeting and dismissed them as baseless rumors

        What Obama has been trying to do since 2009 was transfer the power in Afghanistan from the warlords back to the middle managers or tribal chiefs by removing government corruption, negotiating with the Taliban to establish voting rights for women and verifiable election results through building infrastructure such as roads and bridges, communications and control that allowed the democratic process to expand outside of major cities.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 12:39:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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