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View Diary: Basic political logic and the Voting Rights Act (37 comments)

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  •  given your conclusion, your conclusion follows (0+ / 0-)

    1) I'm not that impressed with arguments that involve boasting about the moral purity of the advocate.  Make a case, don't assume you are morally superior to any dissent.

    2) The WAPO is not my source, Walter Pincus is my source.

    3) The article you cite doesn't expose any vast expansion of the surveillance state, it questions whether a 1979 Supreme Court decision should be revisited.

    Journalists get a bit of a special deal here. The government has established special policies to guard against inappropriate surveillance of reporters. Before an FBI agent can seek a journalist’s call records, they must get special approval from the attorney general. But that’s merely a Justice Department policy, not a constitutional requirement.
    Not frightening

    4) That article includes the following hilarious note

    People may or may not have expected the numbers they dialed to be private in 1979. But they certainly consider the contents of their Gmail accounts and the locations of the cell phones to be private information today.
    Oh come on!

    self-appointed intellectual cop

    by citizen k on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 06:54:52 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  given Machiavellianism, Machiavellianism follows (0+ / 0-)

      If you refuse to acknowledge a subject position, and develop your own moral precepts, your reasoning is sterile.  

      We don't live in abstractions.  We live in a real world of real flesh and blood.  If you abjure the responsibility incumbent upon you to develop principles, you simply and forever express the empty accountancy of the cartographies of power.  

      What the layperson calls having a heart is an essential part of being human.  Our reason flows from our emotions and it is in the continued discursive intersection of the two that we distill principles, slowly and arduously, through many years of toil on the planet.

      So, no, my friend.  Principle does not produce pre-formed conclusions.  It merely illuminates the path toward effective human reasoning, the kind that lifts us beyond the vapid toting up of who is in power and how they maintain power.

      1).  Moral good is the only case.  There is no other.  Tell me which moral good you advocate, and we can then debate yours against mine.  We can examine the real world and how it can or cannot enact the moral goods we seek to achieve.  That's what honest human communication and debate is.

      2).  I'm not sure why you identify the longtime national security journalist Walter Pincus as he whom we must all derive our moral and political judgment from.

      3).  If you contend there has not been a vast expansion of the surveillance state since 9/11, you are either foolish or in denial.  There is voluminous literature to demonstrate your egregious error.  Google "usa surveillance state" and click through any one of the hundreds upon hundreds of books, articles and papers from top-flight scholarly journals, respected newspapers and magazines.  It's ridiculous to have to even point this out to you.  One LINK among hundreds and hundreds.  

      4).  It is a mystery why you think it is amusing that Americans don't want to give the government free access to their email and cell phone records and conversations.  Maybe try talking to a few of us?

      •  it's amusing because it's so unreal (0+ / 0-)

        Google processes google email to target adverts and sells that information. Emails generally move, unencrypted,  over data networks that can pass through foreign countries as well as corporate and government servers that can capture and Verizon uses call data for God knows what purpose and has no legal restrictions on who it sells it to.  For all you know, the Chinese government regularly buys the data that NSA requested or maybe Huawei switches just send them everything.

        The amount that the government knows about us has grown a lot since 2000 for two reasons: 1) the 9/11 Bush expansion and (2) the growth of internet/cloud/social-network.   In an era where Google maps traffic is based on aggregating cell phone locations from drivers, 1970s privacy expectations are silly.  Anyone who thinks their Gmail is more secure than phone calls were 40 year ago is just deluded.

        As for morals, I don't accept your process framework. I'm interested in justice, not paperwork and am highly skeptical of Constitutional idolatry. The constitution only protects those with the power to demand it.

        self-appointed intellectual cop

        by citizen k on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 11:32:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  now this stuff _is_ creepy (0+ / 0-)

          self-appointed intellectual cop

          by citizen k on Thu Jun 27, 2013 at 12:13:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Privacy, justice, and the Constitution (0+ / 0-)

          I think you'd be surprised by the number of Americans who would prefer that internet companies protect their privacy.  I submit that in view of the post 9/11 encroachment you describe, Americans would like privacy protections enhanced rather than decreased or abandoned.  I'm with them.

          You close with the following:

          As for morals, I don't accept your process framework. I'm interested in justice, not paperwork and am highly skeptical of Constitutional idolatry. The constitution only protects those with the power to demand it.
          While I'm interested in absolute justice as well, in our system we're bound to the world as it is.  In that world, our world, the Constitution, while not holy, is the only thing that stands between the massive powers that be and our complete submission to them.  That and that alone is the reason why I make such a big deal out of it.  Because if we tear it up, then the big shots just get to run roughshod over the rest of us.  It would be best to avoid that outcome.  So until the revolution comes, we really don't have any other option.

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