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View Diary: Confronting The Clear And Present Danger of The For Profit Surveillance State (36 comments)

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  •  really? (0+ / 0-)

    What is 'proper' about your 'identification'?

    Yes I think it utterly premature at best to bring Hitler into this more over I explained why. You try and counter with 9.11 and I explain why that isn't the same thing

    If you want to go all passive aggressive fine but if you can't take criticism and objective criticism at that then you really are posting this in the wrong place.

    I have explained myself if you have something new then post it but this absurd attempt to poison the well is just that absurd.

    Get over yourself Ray not everyone is going to agree with you and an even bigger shocker is often times the reasons they disagree are just as valid as the reasons for you opinion.

    In the time that I have been given,
    I am what I am

    by duhban on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 06:24:50 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  My friend, I don't expect everybody to agree with (8+ / 0-)

      me.  I welcome and enjoy intellectually-honest disagreements and counterarguments to my positions.

      Here's an easy one... If one ignores the author of this quote, do you agree or disagree with the premise?

      “The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”
      I happen to believe that that is exactly what's been happening in this country, especially after 9/11.

      So you, instead of providing a counter-argument to that point, instead start talking about black shirts, and all the other nonsense.  It's transparent what you're doing.

      •  funny your words and actions are saying different (0+ / 0-)

        things, vastly different things in my opinion.

        I provided a counter argument your refusal to acknowledge  that does not invalidate that fact.

        And as I said before Hitler's 'point' was invalidated by the very fact that his 'asscent' to power wasn't gradual. By the fact that for Hitler to have his dream government he needed his black shirts, he needed to demonize the Jews, the Gypises, the Homosexuals and anyone else convient.

        Thus yes I reject that premise. Gradual might get you some of the way there but I can't name a facist government that completely took power that way.

        Can you?

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 07:36:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lol. You need to read a few books on Hitler (5+ / 0-)

          or something. Because you seem to have quite a simplistic recollection of how things happened.

          It happens bit by bit. Don't take my word for it, take it from someone who LIVED IT:

          "This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.
          Can you, like, get a clue, someday?




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 07:51:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mayer LIVED it? (0+ / 0-)

            rotfl there goes your credibility.

            Mayer was an American Jew, he never lived in Germany and in fact objected to WW2.

            Can you like, get a clue, someday?

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 08:54:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  edit (0+ / 0-)

              that should have be

              'he never lived in Germany till after the war'

              Typing a little too fast

              In the time that I have been given,
              I am what I am

              by duhban on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 08:57:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Was he alive back then? (0+ / 0-)

              Were you alive back then?

              Did I claim he was Hitler's next door neighbor?

              Did you write a fucking book about it that I missed?

              Did he?

              Idiot.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
              ~ Jerry Garcia

              by DeadHead on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 09:22:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  oh so any book should be considered an account (0+ / 0-)

                that's such a better argument then your first one.....not

                And if I am an idiot what does that make you? I mean I at least know enough to not have claimed Mayer's book is a first hand account.

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 10:12:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes. A book that studies the ordinary lives (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TheMomCat, Ray Pensador

                  of Germans under the Third Reich, published in 1955 and written by a dude that was, like, born in 1908 should be considered a better account of the events of that time than any tripe you come up with.

                  Oh, can you tell me where I claimed Mayor's book was a first hand account? Do you mean this?

                  It happens bit by bit. Don't take my word for it, take it from someone who LIVED IT:
                  I'll tell you what, I'll split the difference with you, since that was ambiguous enough to be read the way you read it.

                  Now, would you care to further educate me on the Third Reich and tell me why the above linked excerpt from Mayer's book doesn't refute your claim that Hitler just "grabbed" power?

                  Further, can you tell me why the slow and imperceptible restrictions on civil liberties we're experiencing do not bear a striking resemblance to what is described in the excerpt?

                  Or will you provide some other excuse for not answering?




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                  ~ Jerry Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 10:42:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  there's nothing ambigious about it (0+ / 0-)

                    you presented Mayer's work as a first hand account and it is no such thing. That said I'll let it go either way as really it's besides the actual point.

                    And Mayer's isn't the only work on the matter and frankly given that it was done twenty years ex post facto  yes I am not willing to give it as much weight as say Mein Kampf in which Hitler himself argues for violence as needed. Or Konrad Heiden who was actually a comtemporary of Hitler who starts with Hitler's 1933 expunging of the Nazi Party of any rivals. Though Konrad does go off the rails with the antichrist bit.

                    And that's just 2 books I would suggest you read.

                    The idea that Hitler didn't violently and bloodly assume power after being elected Chancellor is frankly the wrong one on the facts.

                    In the time that I have been given,
                    I am what I am

                    by duhban on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 10:52:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Dude, I've read close to two dozen books (2+ / 0-)

                      on Hitler, Nazi Germany, WWII, the Holocaust, including the unforgettablely disturbing Einsatzgruppen.

                      Have you at LEAST read Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich?

                      Because you wouldn't be fucking me around like you are right now if you had, or, if you had at least managed to retain that information in your brain.

                      Here's s refresher on what the first chapters talk about:

                      Book One: The Rise of Adolf Hitler
                      Chapter 1. Birth of the Third Reich
                      Chapter 2. Birth of the Nazi Party
                      Chapter 3. Versailles, Weimar and the Beer Hall Putsch
                      Chapter 4. The Mind of Hitler and the Roots of the Third Reich

                      Book Two: Triumph and Consolidation
                      Chapter 5. The Road to Power: 1925-31
                      Chapter 6. The Last Days of the Republic: 1931-33
                      Chapter 7. The Nazification of Germany: 1933-34
                      Chapter 8. Life in the Third Reich: 1933-37
                      [...]

                      Do those chapter titles give you the impression Hitler just woke one day and decided to be dictator?

                      And Shirer most CERTAINLY DID live it first hand.

                      That's what the whole point of this inane subthread was about the first place. The GROUNDWORK was laid slowly and gradually. And no one with any common sense thinks we'll end up with an actual Adolf Hitler-reincarnate. I most certainly don't contend that. But you don't need to take it to anywhere near that extreme in order to do some historical comparisons in other ways.




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                      ~ Jerry Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 01:41:41 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  and now you are moving the goal posts (0+ / 0-)

                        I think that's the clearest sign yet you've lost the argument

                        In the time that I have been given,
                        I am what I am

                        by duhban on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 04:33:08 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Your declaration of victory is premature (0+ / 0-)

                          Please refresh my memory by providing the following information:

                          1) Original "goalpost" location
                          2) New "goalpost" location

                          While we're waiting for you to respond, I will mention incidentally to spectators of this debacle: the surest sign of having lost the argument, imo, comes instead from he who declares victory with little more than zero to offer in rebuttal. You do not refute any of the points I've made to counter your original claims. NOTHING, other than telling me I've "moved the goalposts."

                          I do however, enjoy these interactions with you. With every long, drawn out, mindless clusterfuck subthread masquerading as dialogue between you and I, you succeed only in further embarrassing yourself.

                          Anxiously awaiting that "goalpost" data I requested.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
                          ~ Jerry Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 04:55:39 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Remember this comment? Where in I specifically stated that gradual wouldn't get you all the way? Where you never contested that?

                            That was your chance to make the 'point' you allegedly were making except you never did because that wasn't the point.

                            Yeah you're moving the goal posts and this is just embarrassing for you.

                            Class dismissed

                            In the time that I have been given,
                            I am what I am

                            by duhban on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 05:03:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  This was your "explanation" : (6+ / 0-)
      I wasn't aware the US government had a secret police that was rounding up all the 'bad elements' or that Obama has a secret cadre of 'black shirts' acting as his own personal murders.
      Do these things need to occur before we take action to prevent the further whittling down of our civil liberties? Is that your "red line?" If it isn't, where is that "red line" for you?

      It seems you'd prefer us to wait until it's too late before we do anything.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 06:54:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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