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View Diary: Ecuadorian President Correa Gives VP Biden An Earful (172 comments)

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  •  They're saying they'll consider asylum (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Quicklund, Patate

    if he can get to Ecuador. Then they don't grant him a travel pass to get from the Russian airport to Ecuador.

    So like Hong Kong and Russia before them, Ecuador is saying we totally support you but you're on your own.

    "I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." (From "You Said a Mouthful" by Bishop Desmond Tutu - South African bishop & activist, b.1931)

    by FiredUpInCA on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 03:40:04 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  And you're all "Fired Up!" In CA because (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SouthernLiberalinMD, 3goldens

      The U.S. government is forcing another Latin American country to buckle under pressure for its own self-serving needs using the threat of economic punishment if they don't do what we tell them.

       Some things never "change" despite election slogans.

      •  The US gov't want to arrest Mr Snowden (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FiredUpInCA, sviscusi

        That is no secret.

        Gov't put pressure on other gov't in situations such as this. Not just the USofEvil.

        I do not recall Mr Obama campaigning on a platform of just ignoring people wanted for arrest if they manage to leave US borders.

        •  I do, however, remember Obama campaigning (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chi, 3goldens, ask, cynndara

          On protecting the constitution and all that. Including, believe it or not, the 4th amendment which USED to protect Americans from illegal domestic spying. Ahhh. But that was way back in 2008. Things "change" I guess.

        •  You say other governments put pressure (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens, cynndara

          on other governments in such situations.

          Yes, they do.  Totalitarian dictatorships do it all the time.  "Turn over the Dalai Lama!" for instance.

          BUT... Has the US ever done this?  Tried to pressure another country publicly into turning over a political asylum refugee?  With all the loss of face that entails?

          Nope.  

          Your analogy backfires badly, because you blithely compare the US policy in this instance to that of the worst totalitarian dictatorships.

          •  Of course (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FiredUpInCA, alain2112

            Israel is constantly asking the US to release Johnathan Pollard. Nations act in their perceived self-interet. I am stunned to learn this is news to people.

            Also: Just because the label of "politcal refugee" has been self-applied that does not mean the person is not wanted for criminal arrest.

            •  Apples and oranges. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens, darkmatter, cynndara

              Jonathan Pollard is already ARRESTED and in jail.  Even if you were to say that his arrest is political and unfair, it's still not an analogy.  An analogy would be like if Pollard were in Israel and we publicly blustered and threatened to cut off aid to them unless they turned over Pollard.  Nothing like that has ever happened... before this.

              Nations act in their perceived self-interet.
              Yup, they do.  That's one of the best excuses I have heard for the excesses of totalitarian countries I have ever heard.  It's like something O'Brien would say to Winston Smith.

              It's NOT a good answer.  It's an amoral explanation.

              Also, the Dalai Lama is wanted for a criminal arrest in his home country.  Would there be any honor in turning him over to the Chinese?  Would it be the right thing to do?  If they threatened us with sanctions (like not buying our T-bonds anymore) would that make you feel better about handing him over, or would it make you feel dirty and craven?

          •  What loss of face? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dumbo, 3goldens, cynndara
            "I don't think the diplomatic consequences, at least as they are foreseeable now, are that significant," she added.

            "I think the United States of America is and will remain the most influential, powerful and important country in the world, the largest economy, and the largest military, [with] a network of alliances, values that are universally respected."

            This is from our new National Security Advisor, Susan Rice. Anyone who puts 'values that are universally respected" in the same sentence as"largest military" isn't worried about a loss of face.

            Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -susan ertz

            by graycat13 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 05:38:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hubris. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              3goldens

              It never occurs to some people, I guess, that our special privileged position as "lone superpower," etc. is due to the acquiescence of the rest of the world that it's not such a bad deal.  It's not just our weapons that make us so influential.

              If/when the time comes that the price is too high, there will be a realignment of allies.

              •  And what happens if the price is too high for (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                3goldens

                realignment? That is why I wait to see what Ecuador will do.

                Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -susan ertz

                by graycat13 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 06:16:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's too high now. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  graycat13

                  Let things fester for a couple more decades.  As the economic center migrates to asia, and the US (I hope not) becomes more and more an Eastern European surveillance state, a number of our current allies may want to increase their options.

                  •  Already happening. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    graycat13

                    Sure, the US is still the Biggest Kid On The Block.  But just these revelations, combined with the earlier dump by Manning via Wikileaks, have had a substantial impact on our international prestige.  Basically it brought out into the open what everyone knew but was avoiding acknowledging that they knew, even to themselves most of the time.  And that changes the calculus.  The polite veil of idealism and ostensible good will has been ripped for once and for all, and everyone has to deal with the FACT that everything is and always was about greed and power.  And with that as a given, no nation has any claims on moral superiority, or allegiance based in trust.

                    It's a BIG change, to go from polite hypocrisy to blatant realism.  The shock will be some time percolating to lower levels.  But it's already affecting how the Europeans and our remaining South American allies react to the US.  Everything has gotten a small but significant bit harder in just a few short years.  And THAT is going to have repercussions on everything from trade terms to banking secrecy laws.  There isn't going to be the kind of deference that's been shown for the last thirty years to Anglo-American economists and financial advisors.  And THAT will have an effect on the Bottom Line rolling into Wall Street and Main Street. RENTS WILL GO DOWN.

      •  You can't decry this government as being (0+ / 0-)

        autocratic in one breath and not expect it to show you strong arming, can you?

        "Aux ames bien nees, la valeur n'attend point le nombre des annees" Pierre Corneille.

        by Patate on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 04:22:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  President Correa could have granted a travel pass (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Patate, eden4barack08

        to Edward Snowden if he had wanted to. And he still can.

        He could have done this before he received a call from VP Joe Biden.

        Instead what he chose to do, because he is his own man, is refuse to buckle under pressure from Wikileaks' Julian Assange, who tried to intimidate the President into granting Snowden asylum.

        LONDON—Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said Saturday that the country's consul in London may be disciplined for apparently issuing travel papers for fugitive leaker Edward Snowden, placing the spotlight on an Ecuadorean diplomat who has grown close to WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange over the past year.

        Ecuador has in recent days distanced itself from the so-called "safe pass" travel document for Mr. Snowden that was allegedly issued in London last week by Fidel Narvaez, who serves as consul at the Ecuadorean consulate here. Top Ecuadorean officials in recent days have said the purported document isn't valid.

        That has complicated Mr. Snowden's efforts to leave Moscow—where he flew last Sunday from Hong Kong—and to reach a country such as Ecuador that might grant him political asylum.

        "If it is [true] that he went beyond his authority, he will be disciplined accordingly," Mr. Correa said during his regular Saturday television address.

        Mr. Correa also suggested that Mr. Assange—living under his own political-asylum deal at Ecuador's London embassy for the past year—may also have been involved.

        Mr. Narvaez's actions "were probably taken with Assange in desperation that Mr. Snowden was going to be captured, that was without the knowledge and the authority of the Ecuadorean government," Mr. Correa said

        http://online.wsj.com/...

        President Correa's decision has nothing to do with being "Fired Up" in CA, and everything to do with a shrewd politician that is weighing the economic and political stakes for his country vs. Edward Snowden.

        "I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." (From "You Said a Mouthful" by Bishop Desmond Tutu - South African bishop & activist, b.1931)

        by FiredUpInCA on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 04:24:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I remember back in the day when folks on this (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chi, Dumbo, vacantlook, 3goldens, darkmatter

          site railed against the Bush administration for illegal domestic spying. But you know, that was like back in 2008 so...whatever. Now we cheerlead when "our side" does it and tries to punish the person who blew the whistle on the whole thing. It's a Brave New World I guess.

          •  Yes, and that's why I try to gently (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            3goldens, darkmatter, cynndara

            remind the cheerleaders, we only have Obama for three more years, and after that, the NSA is going to be up for grabs to whatever replaces him.  If he's such a saint, then we can assume the next president will be less saintly, and maybe even a Cheney-like beast.

            Yet, even now, some people are reminding us that we survived the Bush-Cheney years, as if it wouldn't be so bad if Republicans were to inherit an even more powerful domestic spying system than the one they wanted back when they had it before.  In order to shut down the debate, some people are actually ready to whitewash the threat of that.

        •  Yes, becasue Assange might have (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pete Dunkelberg, 3goldens

          threatened to cut off trade treaties with Ecuador.  He's got all that pressure, yup.

      •  Yeah, this is about what it takes for me to (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Chi, Dumbo, 3goldens

        leave the Democratic party:  disgusting gloating over the fact that we can force a man to back down from a moral stand by throwing our weight around, and make him turn over a political asylum-seeker to be imprisoned and tortured, like Bradley Manning.  

        Yay America! My country right or wrong!

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Jun 29, 2013 at 04:35:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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