Skip to main content

View Diary: A brief and hardly consequential diary about superstition. (39 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  what I am saying is exactly this (0+ / 0-)
    you are using determinism as negation of
    free-will.  After all, how can you have free will if the physics of your body is deterministic?
    Nothing more, nothing less. Does not need to be "knowable" in some intellectual fashion.  
    •  Ok, lets back up. What is determinism and how do (0+ / 0-)

      you/we know if it exists?  Describe the difference between an existence where free-will exists (and is therefore indeterminate?) and one that is deterministic and therefore free-will does not exist.

      To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

      by ban48 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 08:53:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here is the central conflict: (0+ / 0-)

      You seem to think (or are at-least echoing opinions) that free-will is an illusion because of the deterministic nature of the universe.

      I'm stating that 'determinism' is the illusion.

      Sidenote: physics has nothing to do with this discussion.  Calvinists have been saying since day-1 that free-will is an illusion because of god.  He sees all and knows all, including the future, which means the future is set and free-will does not exist.

      To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

      by ban48 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 09:01:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  if "'determinism' is the illusion" (0+ / 0-)

        how do you square that with scientific materialism?

        •  Exactly as I've been saying: 'determinism' means (0+ / 0-)

          nothing because it is indistinguishable from non-deterministic systems.  'Scientific Materialists' have an inadequately simplistic world-view.  What they describe does not exist.  Their inadequacy is exposed when I asked "What would a non-deterministic reality look like?"

          When you are part of a system, when you effect it, it affects you back.  If you want to call the 'determinism' and state that there is no way to be part of a system and have 'free will', then your definition of 'free will' is meaningless: by virtue of being part of a system you cannot have free will, but if you are not part of a system and therefore have free will, what good is it?

          It is almost like saying the only way to have free will is to not exist.

          To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

          by ban48 on Sun Jun 30, 2013 at 07:56:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was never intending to defend (0+ / 0-)

            Scientific Materialism.  I do not share your particular gripe with it, but as far as I can tell this is all tangential to the point I was making in my essay.  That said, I do not agree with

            'determinism' means nothing because it is indistinguishable from non-deterministic systems
            computers are deterministic; radioactive nuclei decay are non-deterministic, at least from our human point of view, So these are distinguishable.
            'Scientific Materialists' have an inadequately simplistic world-view.
            I agree but for different reasons.
            If you want to call the 'determinism' and state that there is no way to be part of a system and have 'free will'
            I never said that. i said this:
            how can you have free will if the physics of your body is deterministic? Nothing more, nothing less.
            I think that is all I have to say.  I wish you well in your endeavors.
            •  Ok, well, "How can you have free will?" (0+ / 0-)

              Implying 'free will' doesn't exist for any reason (god, the physics of your body is deterministic, whatever) doesn't mean anything if you cannot describe a condition in which free-will exists.

              And simply saying free-will could exist if god did not exist and physics were not deterministic doesn't mean anything if you cannot describe how a non-deterministic system differs from a deterministic system.

              And, if you need a loop-hole: the physics of the body is deterministic (as-if that means anything), but the physics of the mind is not.  I can act a-causally and perform a real action now based on perceived future events.  It is hardly a deterministic process.

              To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

              by ban48 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:00:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Or, a different angle: (0+ / 0-)

              you say:

              how can you have free will if the physics of your body is deterministic? Nothing more, nothing less.
              without ever answering:
              how can you have free will?
              Saying we don't have free-will implies there is something else (god's will, 'determination', whatever) or the statement is meaningless.  If you cannot describe the difference between having 'free-will' and not (due to whatever), you might as well be saying we lack free-will because of peanut-butter.  The cause and the effect are meaningless.

              To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

              by ban48 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 07:49:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site