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View Diary: Democrats and silos: What to fight for? Hint—everything (200 comments)

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  •  I think jgnyc is talking tactics. (4+ / 0-)

    Doing green jobs without calling it that.

    If I read this correctly, I understand the point, but it also empowers the Right to demonize "green" the way it demonized "liberal."  I would like to keep our terminology and keep its meaning and vibrancy, toward the day when those terms will be ones that all want to claim as their home.

    •  but why fight that fight? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Armando, dance you monster, AoT, lotlizard

      It's about winning elections near term. Liberal got demonized because the Dems decided to triangulate right as the Reaganauts decided to take no prisoners. And, of course, the Civil Rights victories which tribally pissed off a large portion of the frankly racist white working class.

      Nothing wrong with "green" (unlike "the 1%" which I think is a real negative) but stay away from it appearing that the hippies are winning by making it seem we're forward looking economic warriors and of course there's a green component because it's good for business and the Chinese are doing it (they sort of aren't but they do have faster trains) and the Europeans are doing it and if we want to BRING AMERICA INTO THE FUTURE tm we have to do everything possible - and that requires maximizing our industrial management strategies (read - cut down on waste and pollution).

      If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

      by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 12:43:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I get your point, really. (4+ / 0-)

        Your approach works better in the short run.  Mine is aimed at the longer run, to reclaim ground we've been losing.  We're about to run out of ground and vocabulary on our side, and for a change I'd like to see us push the other side on its heels, not beg them for a dance.

        •  I don't believe it works better in the short run. (5+ / 0-)

          We've been trying and trying to placate "the other side" and we've gotten exactly nothing out of them. Nothing that involves money, that is.

          They don't care what words we dress it up with. They want all the money and resources, and they want us to have none. It really is that stark. It took me 26 years of activism to finally realize it, but that's really where they're at.

          Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:16:44 PM PDT

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          •  It's not placating "the other side" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kj in missouri

            it's making common cause with them. Writing off the entire Republican base is counter productive. Some of them are religious or ideological dead enders, some of them aren't.

            If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

            by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:40:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Will they vote for money to create jobs? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              happymisanthropy

              Will they vote for the necessary climate protections that will secure our food and water supply? Will they vote for putting Wall St back behind a wall of laws that keeps them from wrecking the world economy?

              That's what needs to be done to secure our future, that and trade agreements that don't destroy our workers and businesses.

              Things are too dire now. People who don't want to get on board with the basic things necessary to our survival are not people that it's any use to make common cause with. That's what I mean by "the other side." And actually, I believe that there are both Reagan Democrats and Republicans who would get on board with all those things. The ones who won't, well, we've been chasing them long enough.

              Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:28:28 PM PDT

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              •  sort of (0+ / 0-)

                >Will they vote for money to create jobs?

                If pitched correctly yes. More sell the voters on a vision, a Way Forward, putting America Back to Work.

                > Will they vote for the necessary climate protections that will secure our food and water supply?

                No. The Republican tribe will not at least I'm very doubtful.

                > Will they vote for putting Wall St back behind a wall of laws that keeps them from wrecking the world economy?

                Sort of. I think mainstreet is ready for a transaction tax but I doubt any House candidates next year will bring it up. Hope I'm wrong as it's a moral high ground winner.

                If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

                by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:12:13 PM PDT

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      •  Frankly, I think the American people would be (6+ / 0-)

        fine with green jobs as long as they exist and pay a decent living wage, because the American people would be fine with any job as long as it exists and pays a decent wage. It's not a problem of framing; it's a problem of no one being willing to pony up the money to create the jobs, for a variety of reasons.

        In other words, whether you frame it in a way that they can say OMG the hippies are winning or whether you frame it like an Archie Bunker screed, in the end it doesn't matter: in the end you will need money to create those jobs, and money to create jobs ain't on the menu unless there is some specific reason for it (such as:  the powerful want Keystone XL to go through; Keystone XL can't go through without pipe being laid; therefore somebody has to lay the pipe; therefore there have to be about 1,000 temporary jobs).

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 01:15:04 PM PDT

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        •  the government can print money (2+ / 0-)

          See: Keynes, John

          The problem is breaking the ideological gridlock. The other sides' base has been convinced there's an economic rational for the divide but their strength is from the culture war. The solution is in the history books under FDR

          If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

          by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:43:58 PM PDT

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          •  Yeah, but it's not just Republicans who are (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            congenitalefty, Noodles

            keeping this from happening. It's most of the Democratic party too. The ideological gridlock extends from center-left types like my congressman, Chris Van Hollen, all the way over to Paul Ryan. And it's worth considering the wealthy who are standing behind them influencing the conversation. FDR does have the answer, but FDR and the New Deal and Keynes are all verboten--at least as much in our party as anywhere else. And Obama is leading the way on that.

            How do you intend to deal with that? Is your idea that you will sell the Reagan Democrats on Keynes and thus pressure the Democratic party back in the right direction?

            Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:38:05 PM PDT

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            •  jobs jobs jobs (0+ / 0-)

              Just keep saying jobs jobs jobs and assume we've won all the culture war stuff. We haven't, there's miles to go, but take a page from the extremist right book and declare victory via settled moral high ground. Then say jobs. Don't mention Keynes, mention FDR if a candidate is feeling it. Obama's not running again. Shift the discussion to jobs all the time.

              If you didn't like the news today, go out and make some of your own.

              by jgnyc on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:04:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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