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View Diary: Coup in Egypt: Fayoum Governate (14 comments)

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  •  If the military is giving deadlines and ultimatums (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Anastasia Castro, blue aardvark

    perhaps they are already in charge, not a good thing.

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    by judyms9 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 02:59:42 PM PDT

    •  Not a good thing compared to what? (4+ / 0-)

      Morsi and company are not exactly angels here.

      •  I think you have identified the issue. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue aardvark

        He who would trade liberty for security deserves great customer service.

        by Publius2008 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 03:24:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, it was easy when Mubarak was in charge. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        judyms9, blue aardvark

        Now, I don't know what to think.  Was Morsi elected?  Yes.  Was he fairly elected?  Eh, probably.  But yet I am deeply sympathetic of the protestors because it is clear that Morsi does not understand the basic concept that a national leader is a leader of the nation; he has become a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood.

        I'm troubled all the way around.  What's the long game here?  The Arab world has a long and ignominious history of direct military rule.  Will the military elites, once they take power, say "fuck it, this democracy thing won't work in the Arab world?"  Because that's a lot of what you hear - I recall reading a diary here that linked to a translation of an Egyptian newspaper column (we're at triple or quadruple hearsay here) that essentially said, "Egypt is not ready for democracy."  I'm too idealistic, I don't believe that there is any country that is not "ready" for democracy.  But... things are pretty fucked up on this go around.  They got the democracy part right, but that only works when all citizens' rights are protected, not just the majority or the best-organized.

        "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

        by auron renouille on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 03:57:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You know they used to say latin america was (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          judyms9, blue aardvark

          not ready for democracy.  It was all horseshit though.  The problem with Egypt is that the economy sucks.  The people know full well what democracy is and all that.  It's just that the currency has tanked so hard that a lot of them are looking at the military to fix it.

          Democracy worries markets and there has been a vast flight of capital from Egypt since Mubarak was overthrown.  This has also affected tourism which provides for a lot of jobs in Egypt.  

          Egypt is suffering its worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, a former finance minister of the country and one of its leading economists have warned.

          In terms of its devastating effect on Egypt's poorest, the country's current economic predicament is at its most dire since the 1930s, Galal Amin, professor of economics at the American University in Cairo, and Samir Radwan, finance minister in the months after Egypt's 2011 uprising, said in separate interviews with the Guardian.

          Since the fall of Hosni Mubarak in 2011, Egypt has experienced a drastic fall in both foreign investment and tourism revenues, followed by a 60% drop in foreign exchange reserves, a 3% drop in growth, and a rapid devaluation of the Egyptian pound. All this has led to mushrooming food prices, ballooning unemployment and a shortage of fuel and cooking gas – causing Egypt's worst crisis, said Amin, "without fear of making a mistake, since the 30s".

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

          It seems to me that no matter what party gained power through the ballot that this would of happened.  It would have been preferable that the military didn't throw down an ultimatium to end democracy and remained loyal to the civilian government.  Even if that government is composed of people that we don't like or trust.

          In a few years another election would of taken place and perhaps a new government would replace this one.  Doing a coup, even if a large portion of the population endorse it, is simply retarding Egyptian society in the hopes that foreign capital will flow back into the country like it did during Mubarak's military dictatorship.

    •  The Egyptian military is apparently (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Farugia, Zornorph

      more "democratic" than many of Egypt's leaders have been in recent years.  They also supposedly have fewer religious fanatics among them.

      When the last regime's policies became untenable for the Egyptian people, the military was instrumental in helping to remove Mubarak.  

      What's not a good thing is that this is yet another Middle Eastern country - one of the more Westernized ones - that is incapable of electing parties and officials who are not intent on sending them back into the 15th Century both in terms of religion and in terms of modern living.  What's really troubling is that the only style of government that seems to yield more secular countries and countries that have the ability to keep up with the rest of the modern world tends to be dictatorships and monarchical regimes in that region.

      Turkey is missing Ataturk right now and he was a merciless dictator in his time.  But he looks good compared to the guy they just elected who seems intent on sending the country back into the Dark Ages because of his religious beliefs.

      •  no. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue aardvark

        A military junta can never be considered democratic.  The military uses force to enact it's objectives.  That's it's sole purpose.  

        that is incapable of electing parties and officials who are not intent on sending them back into the 15th Century both in terms of religion and in terms of modern living.
        This is the most condescending crap I've read today.  Saying that people who live in their own nation and are practicing their right to self determination through the ballot are voting wrong.  They are voting wrong by your enlightened western standards and should have that right taken away from them.  

        Do you think that the army in Brazil should commit a coup on the elected government because people are protesting?  Do you think they should reform the military juntas there again?  Or did the people in Brazil vote right unlike those in Turkey and Egypt?

        •  Look, Dude or Dudette, this is not Brasil and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Zornorph

          we are talking about a complicated part of the world in different ways than Brasil.  

          Brasil's problem is corruption and that's its unfortunate theme in 20th and 21st Century politics.

          The Middle East and Egypt and Turkey specifically are countries that enjoyed secular and modern governance under dictators.

          If you are naive enough to believe that purple fingers signal democracy, then I am sorry for you.  I am sorry that you haven't a clue about the reality of how long it takes for real and viable democracies to emerge.

          But you and your ignorance aside, the really sad thing about Egypt and Turkey is that they are both going in the wrong direction even after decades of moving towards democratic and secular modern advancements.

          Brasil never could claim that kind of advancement.  Brasil was and still is under the thumb of whatever the Pope is at the moment and the Pope doesn't go there and say, "Be less corrupt" - he's gone there and said, "Have more babies."  Maybe this new Pope will be different, but the reality of Brasil is that that country is captured by the religious and the politically corrupt which has kept that country - one that by all rights should be one of the most powerful in the world based on population and natural resources - kept Brasil in a second, third or forth tier position for the past hundred years.

          •  "Enjoyed" is stretching it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Anastasia Castro

            The Egyptians "enjoyed" it so much that they put their lives on the line to get rid of the Mubarak regime.  "Secular and modern governance" included a police state that clamped down on dissent through torture, imprisonment and murder under the color of law.  

            Turkey enjoyed it so much that it elected Erdogan -- and let's not forget the Kurds who suffered intensely during the quasi-military years.  

            "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

            by Yamaneko2 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 08:13:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Umm you don't know what you are talking about. (0+ / 0-)

            AT ALL.  Brazil was under a military dictatorship, as was most of latin america, during most of the last 60 years.  When the military finally handed over power to civilian authorities, the political landscape was terrible and Brazil was left with many economic problems.

            Dude or dudette you really know nothing.  

            What you are saying is at best boarderline racist.  With the "They are so socially backwards that they vote wrong" type of talk.  For example

            But you and your ignorance aside, the really sad thing about Egypt and Turkey is that they are both going in the wrong direction even after decades of moving towards democratic and secular modern advancements.
            I don't think you know what democratic means.  Since you seem to think it's a feature of military dictatorships and coups.  

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