Skip to main content

View Diary: Americans for Prosperity sends out alarming mailer to fight solar power in Georgia (33 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Are Koch Bros lying about solar being more... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Words In Action

    ..expensive than natural gas or coal-fired power plants?

    You're correct that solar power is falling.

    But solar is also far more expensive than carbon-based fuel.

    I'd also like to add that the primary reason why solar has fallen so much over the last couple of years is predatory trade strategy in China.  

    China has built up so much capacity that it's exporting solar at well below cost, precipitating the US and the EU to accuse China of engaging in unlawful trade practices.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 02:22:16 PM PDT

    •  Compared to 50 year old coal plants, yes. (5+ / 0-)

      Compared to newly-built power sources of any kind, no.

    •  solar is...far more expensive than carbon-based.. (4+ / 0-)

      For whom?  Why are we soon retrofitting our 3rd (rental...) property? Because we are  spendthrift Green Meanies?

      I'll send you our calculations.

      Not to mention the tax treatment.

      Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world..-- Jack Layton

      by sturunner on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 03:18:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Coal and gas electricity both receive greater (4+ / 0-)

      subsidies and social costs than PV. Also, a recent power purchase agreement was just signed to provide PV electricity to the Albequerque market at a wholesale rate of 6 cents per kwh. While baseload stuff is still priced below that, peaking prices on the secondary market are 20 cents per kwh, and up from there. Throw on a carbon tax and PV hits the sweet spot in the market immediately.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 04:04:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  U say, "carbon tax" so insouciantly (0+ / 0-)

        And per kilowatt hour, wind and solar receive FAR FAR greater taxpayer subsidies than carbon based sources.

        Who likes these sweetheart deals between state governments and PV companies?

        Government rentiers like Warren Buffet, who profits at the expense of the working and middle-class.

        Solar 15% Returns Lure Investments From Google to Buffett

        http://www.bloomberg.com/...

        Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK/A) together with the biggest Internet search company, the private equity company and insurers MetLife Inc. (MET) and John Hancock Life Insurance Co. poured more than $500 million into renewable energy in the last year. That’s the most ever for companies outside the club of banks and specialist lenders that traditionally back solar energy, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance data.

        Once so risky that only government backing could draw private capital, solar projects now are making returns of about 15 percent, according to Stanford University’s center for energy policy and finance. That has attracted a wider community of investors eager to cash in on earnings stronger than those for infrastructure projects from toll roads to pipelines.
        .............................

        Long-term power-purchase contracts are the key to making solar a reliable investment, Harris said. Utilities in sunny states such as California, Arizona and Nevada have agreed to pay premiums for electricity generated by sunshine.

        In California, where the largest plants are beginning to produce power, regulators approved contracts in 2010 for utilities to pay $161 to $232 a megawatt-hour for solar energy. That’s at least four times the $40 average wholesale price in Southern California at the time. Most such contracts are confidential to promote competition.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

        by PatriciaVa on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:10:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What crap! How do the "subsidies" for renewables (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Calamity Jean

          possibly rival the costs for inevitable global warning that the hydrocarbon status quo will engender?

          Do you really want to try to equate the cost of Investment Tax credits and net metering with the near certain extinction of civilization as we know it?

          If so, you're coming from a truly warped place.

          Oh, and just to change the subject only slightly (thoughof course, you'll make it into the biggest deal in the world) how about the exemption from civil liability that the federal government (U.S. society) grants to the nuclear power industry?

          There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

          by oldpotsmuggler on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:19:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  those Chinese factories (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PatriciaVa

      are what killed Solyndra. They couldn't compete with the subsidized (by the Chinese) PVs.

      (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

      by PJEvans on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:27:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, they are lying. (0+ / 0-)

      Here is an example of pricing from New Mexico. This is utility solar, which will be less expensive than residential:

      According to a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) between El Paso Electric Company and First Solar, electricity will be sold from First Solar’s thin-film solar panels to El Paso Electric Company for 5.8 cents per kWh (a good 4-8 cents cheaper than new coal, which is in the 10-14 cents per kWh range).
      I don't know about you, but 5.8 cents per kWh sounds pretty good. (Actually, not as good as what I have on my house, solar panels that I got through Solar City and I have a contract guaranteeing 4.3 cents per kilowatt hour.)

      Additionally: (LCOE stands for Levelized Cost of Energy)

      If you’re inclined to bring up subsidies, it should be noted that a Harvard Medical School study found that coal costs us an additional 9-27 cents per kWh in health costs. In a perfect world (economically), that would be added onto the LCOE of coal mentioned at the top (the 10-14 cents per kWh figure). That would bring the LCOE to 19-41 cents per kWh. Additionally, coal has received subsidies for about a century that dwarf anything solar has received.
      And, we didn't even bring in the discussion or cost of climate change. So, yes the Koch brothers are "pants on fire" lying.

      Linky

    •  Solar trumps toxic coal/fracking gas, period. (0+ / 0-)

      Solar trumps toxic coal/fracking gas, period. It is scaring Georgia Power, and threatening their monopoly. How can a so-called Tea Party minion support such a monopoly? Bought off?

      Why aren't those GOP-TP minions who don't understand how utility subsidies/accelerated depreciation/DOE gifting- and grifter-ring prop up toxic energy ever question the lack of real jobs that the fossil/nuklear (bush the lesser pronoun-ciationism, there)  stiff us with? Solar makes lots of jobs, here, and everywhere.

      A domestic solar industry works. Whether it's solar thermal hot water in homes (see: Japan, EU economic success stories), solar PV (again, look east or west), or mega-utility scale solar PV or solar thermal-electric (worldwide, but for Georgia), solar does work, and is certainly the future. Duh...you fellow crackers wake up or keep paying the overlords.

      Solar PV carries only a 30% tax credit. While offshoring your Koch/Apple/Romney money can make your income 100% tax dodged. Oil exploitation-ration under bush the lesser got a $25 billion grifter-gift. Put that kind of subsidy in residential solar, and the utility stockholder is in trouble.

      Physical- and fiscal investment in solar, stateside, on your property in Georgia, does give your property a lower cost of occupancy and operations. And a greater market value--even in Georgia, an armpit of low literacy. We have very high rates for electricity, and asthma. And a lot of abused communities that host skanky Georgia Power fossil plants. Just this week another report (not in press in Georgia) shares what it's like in a GPC plant fall-out zone:

      Coal's slipping grip: Rural Georgia, weaning off coal, eyes its future.
      http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/...

      It's a well known premise of business valuation that lowering your operating costs by a dollar yields $10 in business market value; energy efficient homes, especially with solar PV, creates a buyer interest, and with Georgia Power's rate increases, and ever-increasing value and ROI.

      Georgia Power did file for another rate increase just last Friday afternoon, as usual, timed to miss the news. Only another 6% increase this time, but that's a great bonus return for those that signed on a solar system last week.

      The "Power" in Georgia Power Company (GPC, of Southern Company infamy) refers to their political power. According to the Wall Street Journal (before Murdoch, say, 1977) GPC had a bigger "Security Department" budget than Georgia's GBI. All the better to track their adversaries. They even kill their own, if they threaten their power and profits. Just search "Jake Horton, Southern VP, plane crash".

      Solar installers aren't killing off their empoyees and competitors...

      Florida Mystery Is Fueled By Intrigues and 4 Deaths - New York Times
      www.nytimes.com/.../florida-mystery-is-fueled-by-intrigues-and-4-death...‎

      Fellow crackers, don't put that $20-, 30-, 40- thousand in your next SUV, and lose most of it over the next four or five years. GO SOLAR, and watch your money make money. With being dirty. Be FREE of the GPC monopoly, retain equity in your home or business, and even get a check from the dark side every month. Clear the air, too.

      Freedom from the worst monopoly amongst us is priceless.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site