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View Diary: Well, Is This Enough to Get Zimmerman's Lawyer Disciplined? (151 comments)

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  •  As I said elsewhere ..... (6+ / 0-)

    I have always wondered where the next Ann Coulter would spring up from.  Now we know.

    An aside, watching today, how did the defense lawyer get to go unchallenged with his unsubstantiated allegation while questioning the police investigator: ...
     "Trayvon Martin standing between two houses, maybe looking into windows .......".

    Why did the prosecution not challenge that?   Why did the Judge allow that 'tidbit' of libel to stand?

    Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

    by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 05:57:11 PM PDT

    •  You answered your own question before you asked it (11+ / 0-)

      Why did the Judge allow that 'tidbit' of libel to stand?

      the prosecution [did] not challenge that.

      It's the DA's job to object to objectionable statements.

      "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

      by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:00:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh crikey, that's not libel (3+ / 0-)
      how did the defense lawyer get to go unchallenged with his unsubstantiated allegation while questioning the police investigator: ...
       "Trayvon Martin standing between two houses, maybe looking into windows .......".
      Because testimony to that effect is in evidence?

      Actually, it was put into evidence by the state.

      Black Holes Suck.

      by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:41:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's been testimony that ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar

        Trayvon was looking into windows?  Seriously?
        Cite sources, please.

        Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

        by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:47:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neuroptimalian, Kathy S, andalusi

          The state put into evidence Zimmerman's multiple statements to that effect.

          They called Zimmerman's friend who wrote the book who testified that Zimmerman related that.

          Now, you may not believe Zimmerman, but those statements are now into evidence, and put there by the state. It's entirely allowable and proper for the defence attorney to mention them. And you can bet he will mention it again in his closing argument.

          Black Holes Suck.

          by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:50:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So anything Zimmerman said is (0+ / 0-)

            allowable, whether it is 'fact' or 'fiction'?

            If true, no wonder so many murderers walk, especially here in FL.

            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:01:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              andalusi
              So anything Zimmerman said is allowable, whether it is 'fact' or 'fiction'?
              Well, not "anything" he said. But everything he said that was in the recorded interviews, introduced by the state and played for the jury, is most definitely in evidence for the jury to consider. And it's the jury who will decide which parts of those statements are, to use your words, "fact" and "fiction". That's their job.

              Black Holes Suck.

              by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:06:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So in reality, there's been no ... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                myboo, gramofsam1

                testimony that Trayvon was 'looking into windows'.  There's been testimony that accuses him of that act, and I always thought the deceased was never the one on trial in such a case.

                Got it.

                Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:16:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, yeah, that's what testimony is (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kathy S, andalusi

                  Just like when a witness says that they saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. Or when Jentel relates what she heard on the phone, and what Martin said to her. And, when Zimmerman says he says Martin "looking into windows". ALL that is in evidence.  

                  It's up to the jury to decide what they believe, and don't believe.

                  I'm glad to have cleared things up for you. You're welcome! :)

                  Black Holes Suck.

                  by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:21:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You didn't, don't pat yourself on the back ... (0+ / 0-)

                    so smugly.  It gives 'evidence' to your bias, IMHO.

                    Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                    by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:36:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I've pretty much come to expect this online (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Grizzard, SoCalSal, andalusi

                      You know, I explained to you how the statements by Zimmerman that Martin was looking into windows came in...something you denied was in evidence. You learned something today about how testimony and evidence works, but rather than just say "thank you", you got defensive because it didn't fit in with your little "libel" theory.

                      Again, no need to reply, I've just come to occasionally expect rude manners online.

                      Black Holes Suck.

                      by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:42:33 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Not rude manners, just 'evidence' and ...... (0+ / 0-)

                        and I will maintain that anything placed into the trial as a 'statement' is not a 'fact'.  In this case, it was an accusation made against someone who can't speak for himself without any substantiating physical evidence or any corroborating witnesses.

                        So it's still a baseless accusation against a dead man with no witnesses.  I still maintain that the DA should have objected to the defense attorney's smug interjection of the accusation against the deceased, who is not the one on trial here.  If you had heard his tone , you might, if you weren't already so in awe of them, have understood my original complaint.  No need to thank me for clearing that up for you.  Really.

                        Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                        by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 07:51:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah, I expected this as well (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          andalusi

                          An accusation is testimony. And it's evidence. Whether it's corroborated goes to the credibility of the evidence, but it's still evidence. That's why the defence attorneys were able to ask about it. The prosecution knew all this, that's why they didn't object. And if they had objected, it would have been over ruled.

                          In fact, the prosecution wanted those statements in, because it fits with their theory of the cast that Zimmerman profiled Martin.  

                          If someone witnesses  John shooting Mark, and testifies in court "I saw John shoot Mark". That's an accusation. And it's testimony. And it's evidence. The jury decides whether they will believe it or not.

                          I didn't say I believed Zimmerman. I didn't say I was in awe of anyone, and I saw the question being asked. It was completely proper, as all the lawyers in that courtroom knew. I have no idea what Martin was doing that night, I wasn't there. Neither were you.

                          Black Holes Suck.

                          by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:05:41 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Watching this conversation is like (4+ / 0-)

                            watching two teams trying to play baseball. Except one of the teams doesn't know you have to run to first. And when the one team tries to explain that to the other team, the other team claims that the one team is wrong.

                            The only problem with this is that Pi Li has played baseball (as a prosecutor). And emsprater apparently has not. Emsprater is arguing what he or she thinks the rules should be. Pi Li is arguing based upon what the rules actually are. This is common in conversations between lawyers and non-law types. No matter how good or bad a law might be, we have to deal with the reality of what it is, and saying that the defense attorney shouldn't have mentioned when the law says otherwise is useless.

                            "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

                            by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:14:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This conversation would have gone a whole ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar

                            lot differently if someone had not decided to play 'I'm superior' and had not made this statement ...

                            I'm glad to have cleared things up for you. You're welcome! :)

                            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:22:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, he is proven to be quite the (0+ / 0-)

                            arrogant, smug, legal eagle, hasn't he?
                            I can deal with almost anybody. I cannot not abide an arrogance.
                            With his attitude, I certainly wouldn't want him defending anybody I hold dear.
                            How disappointing.
                            I almost wished I hadn't put up this diary because then I would still be thinking of him as one of the bright new stars on DKos.
                            Ugh!

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:36:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cannot abide arrogance. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            emsprater

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:36:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It appears it might be .... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar

                            a pre requisite for passing the Bar in some states.

                            My apologies to all the really good lawyers out there everywhere, all 15 of you!

                            (that's a joke, in case it causes someone to want to file a suit against me).

                            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:46:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The joke here, of course, is on you (0+ / 0-)

                            The above quote from another person in this thread. Perhaps you should take your personal attacks to her.

                            "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

                            by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:42:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not a he (0+ / 0-)

                            And I'm sorry to disappoint you.

                            Black Holes Suck.

                            by Pi Li on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:43:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My comment wasn't directed at you. (0+ / 0-)

                            It was meant for Grizzard.

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:52:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I do owe one particular person .... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar

                            an apology: you. (and only you)

                            I did not mean to 'hijack' your diary by interjecting a different topic into the conversation.  Once the high muckety mucks of legal beagles decided to 'correct' me WITHOUT identifying themselves as 'lawyers', it grew.

                            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:05:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No need. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            emsprater

                            And if there is, you were already forgiven. :)

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:14:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks. Unfortunately ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar

                            this little exchange has reminded me why I have avoided this place like a tea party rally for so many months now: too many folks feel it's their right and or duty to denigrate those who don't fall in line with them when told to. We all color our reactions here based on experiences, and as I was reading the initial exchange, I saw a visual combination of Ann Coulter, Anita Bryant, the Church Lady and Virginia Fox in my mind's eye saying:

                            I'm glad to have cleared things up for you. You're welcome! :)
                            Time to go away again and leave the place to the folks who have all the 'real' answers, but who continue to wonder why they don't really connect with average folks anywhere.

                            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:27:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, please don't go. (0+ / 0-)

                            Not because of them.
                            We have as much right to be here as they do.
                            Plus, now that I have come to "know" you, I am loathe to let you go. :)

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:45:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, the diary is important. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar, Denise Oliver Velez

                            IN case you haven't seen it, the prosecution has filed a motion for inquiry over the tweet and picture.

                            State files motion ....

                            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:49:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No. You have picked your side. (0+ / 0-)

                            This is an intellectual exercise for you.
                            Given some of your diaries, I thought you'd understand.
                            I believed what you wrote. I thought you were writing from the heart.
                            I see I was wrong.

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:23:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's a pretty righteous joke (5+ / 0-)

                            and frankly, a baseless, HRable smear.

                            You "thought I'd understand" that you want the right to a zealous defense thrown out when it's a defendant who doesn't deserve it in your eyes? Because that's really what you're saying.

                            Let me make something very clear to you: the rights of all defendants are tied to the rights of all defendants. If George Zimmerman cannot get a fair trial, then no defendant can. THIS is what the sixth amendment is about. When you start picking and choosing which defendants get the right to zealous representation, you perpetuate a climate of selective justice. Preserving the right to a zealous defense for all defendants requires that we DEMAND a zealous defense even for people like George Zimmerman.

                            When public defenders plead for the rights of the accused in every other case, they're often blasted by people from the right wing of the spectrum. Often times, those people have done horrible things. Often times, the only defense on appeal is that the defendant's right to a fair trial was impeded by racial bias or some other insidious factor. And every. single. time., some dunderhead from the right will accuse people, just like me, of being a do-nothing, low-life scumbag for doing every single thing in my power to make sure that that accused rapist or murderer.

                            Has this attorney done things that suggest that even outside of his role as a defense attorney, he might be a fairly sizable piece of shit? I think so. And for that, he can, should, and will be criticized. But what you're doing is NOT criticizing this attorney as a person. You're criticizing the entire role of the defense attorney. By arguing that he's being really mean(!) to state's witnesses, you're arguing that George Zimmerman does not deserve the benefit of the most zealous defense an advocate can give him.

                            And THAT is offensive. It's THAT ability and willingness to limit the rights of some that will lead to parsing the rights of even more defendants. To accuse me of viewing criminal defense as an intellectual exercise is OFFENSIVE. I'm smart enough to do lots of things to work my fucking brain: baseball analytics, stock analysis, or hell, civil litigation like I did at one point during law school. I've chosen this particular line of work because I am passionate about the rights of the people who get screwed in this system. Because when I walk into a court room and it looks like a scene out of Amistad - literally, black men chained to one another - I get viscerally angry. It's because I, as a nice-looking white kid, got away with everything under the sun while the black kid in my town did not. And yes, defending George Zimmerman would be somewhere close to impossible for me; he's vile, racist, obnoxious, dangerous, and lots of other adjectives. But it's those reasons that he deserves a spirited defense just as much as the next guy.

                            Because I have SEEN what it looks like when the right to a fair trial gets parsed based upon who we think deserves it. It's easy to see who bears the burden when we start making those distinctions.

                            "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

                            by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:38:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  * (0+ / 0-)

                            doing every single thing in my power to make sure that that accused rapist or murderer [has a fair shot].

                            "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

                            by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:48:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not to beat a dead horse .... (0+ / 0-)

                            but if you feel that it's 'ok' to infer that a murdered teen was a peeping tom in an effort to make sure the accused murderer has a 'fair shot' at going free, if that's what good lawyers do, it's no wonder there's variance of opinion about their moral compass.

                            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:40:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cry me a river. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice

                            No longer interested in anything you have to say.
                            Not really impressed with your prolixity designed to showcase your brilliance.

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:49:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  I thought the prosecuter did object (0+ / 0-)

      and the judge made the defense rephrase the question a couple times.

      •  Unfortunately not ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar, protectspice

        when the defense was questioning the police investigator about whether he would have stopped to question Martin if he had been 'driving by while on patrol and saw him standing in the rain, between two houses, maybe looking into windows and not moving'.

        If you heard that interchange, you already know the emphasis I placed on 'maybe looking into windows' was placed there by the defense attorney with his inflection, not by my italics.  He got away with labeling Martin as a peeping tom without so much as a peep from the DA on that interchange, and the high muckety mucks here that are lawyers seem to think it's all ok.

        No wonder in my profession we simply hate it when they bite the tires on our rigs on the way to the hospitals.

        Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

        by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:10:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How cute (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pi Li

          an ambulance chaser joke.

          Look, guy. It's alright to not like the law. The Florida lege passes them, and if you hate it enough, you can go down there and picket or start a website or, hell, blog on DailyKos about it.

          But your statement:

          high muckety mucks here that are lawyers seem to think it's all ok.

          smacks of a wrong-headedness that I can't let go. "Muckety mucks" seem to think it's "ok" because...guess what? It is legal according to the Florida rules of evidence. The poster above was simply trying to explain this, and you took the unusual route of getting upset at her because you apparently think this law is bunk.

          The law that governs this case is what it is, pal. It's not what you want it to be. As I suggested, if you want it to be something different the next time there's a trial, then should try to do something about it.

          "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

          by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:19:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry. Really. (0+ / 0-)

            Well, maybe.

            The jury's still out, pal.

            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

            by emsprater on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:29:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  HEY! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Be Skeptical, suesue

              "We forward in this generation, triumphantly."

              by Grizzard on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:44:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  IANAL and I completely understand your (0+ / 0-)

              frustration. You're right. In many instances O'Mara puts words in witnesses mouths, and very rarely does the State object. However, from what I understood from the exchange you had, the attorneys are right on this. Zimmerman probably won't testify, so the State is bringing in his testimony via videos and then trying to impeach it. He said he thought Trayvon was suspicious because he first saw him walking between buildings. He said the houses have windows on the sides. He said Trayvon was looking around and looked into people's windows. It's possible he did. It was dark and there may have been lights on. I probably would look also. So that's his testimony, and it's now available for Mr. Smurky to exploit. Additionally, Serino was demoted from investigator to patrol. He's got a few more years before he can retire. So that whole testimony was a little skewed, and, for me, very disappointing.

              •  The disparity lies ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                HappyinNM

                between the legal beagle meaning of 'evidence' (something, anything, presented in a trial) and the lay person's meaning of 'evidence' (a fact).  The remainder of it was simply, to use the one person's 'baseball' metaphor, one sides attempt to throw dirt into the face of the player neither team would ever allow to play because they all think they are too superior to play with that person.

                Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                by emsprater on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 09:16:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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