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  •  Would you say that AF1 (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    second gen, Don midwest, elmo, koNko

    should be able to fly wherever whenever ?
    That the overflight of other countries is a given and no permission is needed ?
    How about landings ?

    Do countries get to control their own airspace ?

     

    The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

    by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:24:41 PM PDT

    •  AF1 does file a flight plan (4+ / 0-)

      so are you asking if AF1 is flying where we said it would, that other countries can force it down?

      •  The precedence this sets... (9+ / 0-)

        ...is unprecedented.

        "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

        by Richard Cranium on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:32:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You don't think airspace has been closed before ? (0+ / 0-)

          You don't think aircraft have been denied permission before ?

          Does Cuba get to control its airspace ?
          If AF1 was to transit Cuba's airspace ,
          would you say to Cuba that it should not
          be upset ?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          Cuba
          Unscheduled foreign aircraft are prohibited from entering or encroaching Cuban airspace including disputed international water zones except when permission has been explicitly given by the Cuban Government. The Cuban military has been known to shoot down and destroy unauthorized aircraft without warning including a 1996 incident in which two U.S.-registered aircraft were shot down and destroyed by Cuban Air Force MiGs

          The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

          by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:43:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you honestly think, for one moment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WheninRome

            that Cuba would deny AF1 permission to transit Cuban airspace enroute to wherever if requested?  Of course not.

            Anyway, look at a fucking map.  The U.S. government would never request such permission even if need be, because Cuba can be circumnavigated in international airspace so easily.  

            Your comment is disingenuous.  The U.S. government would never be placed in a circumstance to even request such permission.  

            "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

            by Richard Cranium on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:50:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You really have no clue. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              second gen

              No US aircraft has permission to traverse Cuban Air Space.

              That includes Air Force One.

              John Roberts? Melville Fuller?? WTF is the difference???.

              by Walt starr on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:59:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ummm, daily fights into Guantanamo Bay? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                WheninRome, Don midwest

                Last I checked, that was Cuban sovereign territory, with an extended lease by the U.S. government that the Cuban government has chosen (for whatever reason) to honor.

                "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

                by Richard Cranium on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:09:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What ? Are you joking ? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  VClib
                  that the Cuban government has chosen (for whatever reason) to honor.

                  http://www.heraldsun.com.au/...

                  CUBA has demanded the US return Guantanamo Bay to the island nation and denounced the "war on terror" prison, where six detainees could face the death penalty.
                  http://www.globalpost.com/...
                  Cuba says US must shut Guantanamo, hand back base

                  Cuba's foreign minister demanded Wednesday that Washington shut its controversial jail at Guantanamo Bay and return the long-held military base to Havana.

                  http://www.npr.org/...
                  In 1903, President Theodore Roosevelt signed a deal with a liberated Cuba to lease the 45-square-mile area. The price: 2,000 gold coins a year. The lease was later renegotiated to stipulate that it could only be canceled by U.S. abandonment or by mutual agreement. And the U.S. still sends checks for some $4,000 a year.

                  When Fidel Castro came to power in 1959, he indicated he would not abrogate the agreement, but he quickly changed his mind. In 1961, President Eisenhower broke off diplomatic relations — and by 1964, Castro was trying to cut off the water supply to Guantanamo. The U.S. started bringing water in by ship.

                  Periodically, the Havana government demanded the return of the land, and it stopped cashing the rental checks.

                  The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                  by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:39:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not going to get into history GITMO (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Don midwest

                    Google it, if you wish.

                    U.S. has a lease, whether or not Cuba has cashed the rent checks.

                    (And obviously, there's more to it than that...ask this old Navy veteran if you need some perspective...)

                    "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

                    by Richard Cranium on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:50:27 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't need to google it or get your take on it . (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      second gen

                      I doubt you could pull up any fact that is not already known .

                      that the Cuban government has chosen (for whatever reason) to honor.
                      "honor" , you claimed they honored . Clearly not the case .

                      The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                      by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:54:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  How do you think they get into (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  second gen

                  Guantanamo Bay ?
                  "extended lease" ? Maybe ?

                  http://www.uabmedicine.org/...

                  February 10, 2010
                  CCT Jet Is First US Aircraft Over Cuba in 50 Years

                  UAB Synopsis, Vol. 29, No. 06, February 10, 2010

                  On a January 13 flight to carry a survivor of the earthquake in Haiti to a Miami hospital, UAB Hospital’s Critical Care Transport (CCT) jet became the first US aircraft in several decades to make an official flight through Cuban airspace.

                  After the earthquake occurred on January 12, US officials made requests of Cuba to allow implementation of a special medical evacuation route over its airspace, although the two countries are still at odds over the US trade embargo and other actions put into place years ago to protest Cuba’s human rights and political record.

                  The base commander at Guantanamo Bay sought a waiver from a Cuban military officer with whom he has regular meetings across the minefield that separates the 45-square-mile base from Cuba proper. The flight route had been negotiated over many years by the US military to expedite medical aircraft flights out of Guantanamo Bay in disaster situations. US diplomats also contacted the Cuban foreign ministry to discuss "this important humanitarian cooperation.''

                  ...........................................................
                   Do you honestly think, for one moment
                  that Cuba would deny AF1 permission to transit Cuban airspace enroute to wherever if requested?  Of course not.
                  Of course not ?  Of course . That has been what has been going on for a long long time .

                  The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                  by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:47:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  France Is Cuba? (0+ / 0-)

            So the diplomatic relationship between France and Ecuador is the same as that between Cuba and the US? Of course not: Cuba and the US are in a half-century old Cold War.

            But if we follow your logic, then you should agree with this diary: Ecuador should immediately end trade and diplomatic relations with France, Portugal and the US that obviously put them up to this. Because that is the state of affairs between Cuba and the US.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 10:11:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Excuse me, but I think airspace was denied (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            temptxan, semiot, gffish

            and revoked AFTER the flight plan was filed and the plane was in flight.  

            From Rachel Maddow transcript:

            his state airplane was denied access to some of the european airspace that he needed to fly through in order to get home. it was while his airplane was in mid-flight already that the governments of france and portugal revoked the authorization they had previously granted for that plane to use their airspace.
            So all this crap about how countries deny airspace all the time -- that's apples and oranges.  This really is unprecedented, as the diarist said.
      •  You changed the question , (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        second gen

        but you failed to answer the question asked .

        Can AF1 fly wherever whenever ?
        Yes or No ?

        Do countries get to control their own airspace ?
        Yes or No ?

        The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

        by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:33:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  except your question is invalid (7+ / 0-)

          because the Bolivian plane was not flying "wherever whenever" but on the course that had been planned. The way you ask it suggests it was a total shock to the French and Portueguese that this airplane had come out of nowhere and was in their airspace.

          •  My question is very valid . (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            second gen

            Answer the questions , stop with the run around .

            The way you ask it suggests it was a total shock to the French and Portueguese that this airplane had come out of nowhere and was in their airspace.
            My question does not say that or suggest that . You are reading that into it .

            So if I file a flight plan , I can go on the flight as planed no matter what ? The countries I plan to fly over can't say no ?

            The country has control over its own airspace , it may say yes it may say no , it may change its mind while the aircraft is in the air .

            The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

            by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:50:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Do you not see, by your own questions... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shahryar, CroneWit, DocGonzo

          ...the quagmire that this incident establishes?

          "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

          by Richard Cranium on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:35:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You say "establishes" ? (0+ / 0-)

            I say air space gets closed and its nothing new .

            Are you ever going to answer my questions ?
            If not why not ?

            Do you think AF1 can fly whenever wherever ?

            Does a country get to control its own airspace ?

            Do you know that there are airlines that we , the US , will not allow into our airspace ?

            Do you know that airspace is closed to Air Force 1 now ?
            Do you know that Air Force 1 can't fly whenever wherever now ?
            Do you know that foreign leaders have to give permission for overflights ?

            The sky isn't wide open , its very controlled , people can get in big trouble for flying into closed airspace , that's not new or remarkable .

            Imagine what would have happened if AF1 flew over China or Russia sans permission a while back .

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

            by indycam on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:09:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  AF1 can inflight refuel (0+ / 0-)

      IF a nation denies air space, yawn.

      John Roberts? Melville Fuller?? WTF is the difference???.

      by Walt starr on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 08:35:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "control their own airspace"? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shopkeeper, WheninRome, CroneWit, wu ming

      Snowden is not wanted by the police in France.

      One of the problems with this incident is that countries who should be sovereign are interfering with aviation to please another government, one whom their citizens did not elect.

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:28:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, I think they were looking out for their own (0+ / 0-)

        interests. They don't want Snowden stuck in a transit lounge at one of their airports. That's a diplomatic and political headache they can do without.

    •  Enemies (6+ / 0-)

      If Air Force 1 were diverted at the last minute by France and Portugal because they, or say Russia on a day it's controlling Western Europe's heating gas that day, asserted that a political refugee seeking US asylum was on board... That would be a very serious insult to the US and to diplomatic immunity.

      I note that "The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison"

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:55:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well stated n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit

        "Mitt who? That's an odd name. Like an oven mitt, you mean? Oh, yeah, I've got one of those. Used it at the Atlas Society BBQ last summer when I was flipping ribs."

        by Richard Cranium on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 09:59:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, so now it's an "insult" not an "act of war" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          second gen, sviscusi

          That's a much more reasonable position.

          We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

          by i understand on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 10:08:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not just any plane, but the president's (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DocGonzo

            official jet, that was diverted (the Guardian as a photo of it up on their live blog).  And it's not AF1, it's a 30-seater.

            Making it circle for three hours for erroneous reasons is a pretty damn serious diplomatic breach.  Argentina's President Kirschner is calling an emergency meeting of all South American leaders tomorrow.  It's more than "an insult".

            Lots of moving pieces these days...

            "And now we know that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob." -- FDR

            by Mogolori on Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 11:19:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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