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View Diary: Army Takes Power In Egypt (35 comments)

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  •  It's a difficult question (0+ / 0-)

    What do you do when a democratically-elected government behaves undemocratically?  Democracy is more than just the occasional election, it's respect for rights and minority views.  But the military shouldn't be the arbiter of when and how a government like that is removed.

    Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

    by Sky Net on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 01:24:05 PM PDT

    •  I'm not clear on whether (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BradMajors

      the government was behaving undemocratically. They did have a constitution. Morsi and the constitutional court had been in running conflict. It seems to be firsy and foremost an economic crisis.

      •  From what I've noticed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OleHippieChick, Noisy Democrat

        which is admittedly not a lot, the Morsi government did seem to be slowly imposing a more Islamic rule of law on Egypt than previously. Women and Coptic Christians have certainly expressed alarm at some of their moves.

        According to the NY Times, this action was taken with the support and participation of Mohammmed Elbaradei, the head of the Egyptian Coptic Church, and the grand sheik of Al Azhar. So I'm waiting before I call it a military coup.

        However, Muslim Brotherhood supporters are claiming that three Islamic radio stations have been taken off the air, and that gunfire has been heard near the site of the Morsi supporters' sit-in. Neither of those, if true, are good news.

        "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

        by sidnora on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 01:39:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it is a question (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FG, BradMajors

          of what is the majority opinion in Egypt. At the time of the election it appeared that a majority of the voters tended toward conservative Islamic views or were willing to vote for people who did. That is certainly not a society that I would want to live in, but is that an issue for the outside world to sit in judgement on?

          In the US we have our own running controversies over religious issues and public policy.

          •  i do not think this conclusion is warranted (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            katiec, Noisy Democrat

            egyptians had a choice between a military leader and morsi.  he swore he would not go Islamic and did.

            •  From what I have read (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BradMajors

              people are much more upset about economic issues than religious issues. You seem intent on imposing the simplistic western media narrative on a complex situation of which you likely have no first hand experience.

              •  While I agree (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                katiec, Noisy Democrat

                that the economic issues are probably the primary motivation, take a look at that list of the leaders of this takeover in my comment. Do you really think the Coptic Christian Pope signed on for strictly economic reasons? I suspect there are plenty of Egyptians who don't want a stricter Islamic government. They mostly want a government that works.

                At least part of the reason Morsi won in the first place was that the MB was way more organized, politically, than the rest of Mubarak's opposition. That does not necessarily reflect the breadth of their support, any more than the fact that the Republicans control the House reflects the breadth of their popular support.

                Another was that people were willing to put up with an Islamic government, on the terms Morsi originally promised,  if it delivered economically. That's not the same thing as actively preferring an Islamic government, as this week's events seem to demonstrate.

                "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

                by sidnora on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 02:20:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The question, which I can't answer, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sidnora

                  is what do a majority of the people want. Certainly the Coptic Church and El Bardi don't want strong influence from the Muslim Brotherhood.

                  Unfortunately the army has the only vote that counts.

                  •  of course I wouldn't be happy (0+ / 0-)

                    to see those other leaders get played by the army, and have this uprising be just a return to Mubarak-style autocracy. I recognize that there's a very good possibility of that happening.

                     But part of any real democracy is protection of the rights of the minority from the hegemony of the majority. This government hasn't been doing very well at that. You can't blame people for wanting to feel their government isn't allowing, or even sanctioning, sectarian violence against them.

                    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

                    by sidnora on Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 05:24:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  The young secularists -- the core of the protest (3+ / 0-)

                movement -- don't really want a religious government.

                •  Clearly they did not. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  katiec, BradMajors

                  However, they weren't able to mount a politically effective organization when it came time for the election.

                  My view is that one would have to know a great deal more about Egypt than I do to fully understand all the forces that are in play.

                  •  The young protesters wanted the elections put off (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BlueDragon

                    longer so they could organize.

                    Then Morsi promised they'd be represented.

                    But they weren't.

                    The road map put forward by the military is nearly word for word - at least in it's English translation - to that of the young people's roadmap.

                    So, maybe that's a good sign.

                    Also, there has thus far been  NO  police or military action against the young people.

                    That's also a good sign.

                    I don't expect utopia to arise, but hopefully the you protesters will get at least some representation.

                    If not, I'm sure they'll be back out in the street.

              •  my information on this is NOT from western media (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Noisy Democrat

                who don't seem to want to report much at all.

                i've been reading Egyptian statements.

                aren't you being simplistic when you want to make this about one thing.  i never suggested it this was uncomplicated.  

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