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View Diary: Are European b̶a̶l̶l̶s̶ Brains bigger than ours? (92 comments)

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  •  it could be (1+ / 0-)
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    that the very hard right (short of actual neonazis; think Le Pen) offers resistance to US-EU hand-in-glove police symbiosis. I say it could because these are not close to powet yet though they´re inching closer. Detestable as they are, they do value this "national sovereignty" concept. It has some logic that in Germany a right-flank law-and-order politician suggested opening a court case over US data mining and its possible that a FN government in France (may it never come to that) actually goes forward and shuts down data exchange. (Of course they´d gladly continue and boost doing it internally).

    though one wishes it were not so. Europe lost a MAJOR battle when Jospin succumbed third at Chirac´s reelection bid, that was our equivalent of the US 2000 election, and Europe has not recovered from it.

    •  Oh, I'm willing to group LePen (1+ / 0-)
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      With Nazis.  Close enough.

      I'm part of the "bedwetting bunch of website Democrat base people (DKos)." - Rush Limbaugh, 10/16/2012 Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

      by tom 47 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 at 03:46:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the French voted Chirac and stopped Le Pen (1+ / 0-)
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      so  they didn't get the Jospin choice - no disaster, surely?  

      Chirac was sensible enough to look Bliar in the eye and say that the invasion of Iraq was a stupid idea and no, we would not be greeted as liberators (only for the Bliar to say that Chirac just didn't 'get it', did he..)

      Le Pen would have been a disaster; no dispute there.  He lost fair and square, and there was no Nader confusion and no Supreme mess up.  2000 is your problem.

      •  hi :) (0+ / 0-)

        it was a bit different, Jospin would have had a good chance to beat Chirac in the final, yet n the first round, all the left vote splintered heavily, amongst a multitude of candidates, some of them pretty spurious like a trotskyist and the like. And by french law, only No. 1 and No. 2 got to the runoff - and so Le Pen, instead of Jospin, made No. 2. place and Jospin never got to run against Chirac.

        That was the most horrific shooting-into-own-foot that the French left has done in a long time.

        That Chirac then went over Le Pen was a done deal but was also irrelevant, the damage was done.

        The problem was that in those years, the critical negotiations about the restructuring of the EU were running, in the context of the eastern enlargement. And so it was Chirac, who was determined to let national government power prevail, negotiating with Schroeder, who was dithering, in Nice, which was a catastrophe. Jospin could have gotten Schroeder (who was governing with the Greens) around to a model preserving independent power for the EU organs against the national governments.

        So as it was, essentially through Jospin´s/the left´s self-defeat, the federalist conception of Europe got sunk, the intergovernmentalist conception ruled the day, and the current European malaise (political, and in economic, social, and environmental policy) is the direct consequence of that. We arent finished yet paying the price.

        •  Lets not forget that Chirac won 80/20 (1+ / 0-)
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          in the second round.

          Even the socialists held their noses and voted for Chirac to keep Le Pen out. Like in most countries, there ia a hard core right wing that make up less than 20% of the vote, and they rarely get anywhere in democratic politics except where there is proportional representation.

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