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  •  I love this letter except (18+ / 0-)

    that every time a person who is arguing for choice says that there should be zero abortions--or even as few abortions as possible, I feel that the argument has been ceded to the forced-birthers.  

    I agree that we need science based sex education and access to birth control for men and women.  But we also need to begin to talk about abortion from the basis of science.  An embryro, zygot, of a fetus is NOT a baby.  A person may wish to view it that way but from the perspective of science it is not.  Therefore, there is nothing wrong immoral or criminal with any abortion as long as it is what the woman obtaining one wishes and it is performed by a qualified medical professional.  

    Abortion is not murder.  It is a medical procedure.  Granted, it is not pleasant, and it can be expensive -- and for that reason, women need the opportunity to prevent unplanned pregnancies.  And if a woman does get pregnant because her birth control failed, or she was careless or she was raped, she should not be dragged over a hot pile of guilt-coals by the morality police.

    •  Agreed. The abortion should be rare (6+ / 0-)

      line that's parroted by so many prochoicers is from letting the anti choicers frame the argument.  Abortion is not a bad thing.

      "Growing your own food is like growing your own money" Ron Finley guerilla gardener extraordinaire.

      by pitbullgirl65 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 at 07:15:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, I can't agree. (0+ / 0-)

        Abortion should be rare.  I don't think I am "parroting" the anti-choicers!  I fought for the abortion initative in 1971 - went from door to door and discussed the arguments.  (Washington state.  We won, but not before the absentee votes were counted.  And I voted absentee - took it as a personal win!)

        Who would want abortions to be more common?  They are less dangerous than childbirth, but things can go wrong and the whole process can be stressful.

        With good sex education and contraception, both sexually transmitted diseases and abortions should be kept to a minimum.  

        We can agree that abortions should be readily available!

        The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

        by DSPS owl on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:42:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Abortion may not be murder but, it is killing or (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ailanthus, Whatithink

      rather culling potential human life.
      By depicting the medical procedure as some cold clinical emotionless procedure, you sell short the feminine POWER to choose life or death of her conceptions.  Pretending that abortion is "no big deal" or inconsequential as the action of choice between life and death, you denigrate that natural feminine power.

      •  That is a personal belief (5+ / 0-)

        And you are entitled to it.  But it is not something the government should pontificate about.  

        •  On the morality of abortion, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ailanthus, Womantrust, boofdah

          it should be noted that not everything that results in death is murder.

          Suppose I don't donate to Oxfam, and as a result, they feed one fewer person in Africa, and that person starves to death.  Most of us would not say that I murdered that person.

          If you believe a fetus is a person, it is still a stretch to believe that it is entitled to use a woman's body against her will, even if its survival depends on it.  Being pregnant should be viewed as comparable to an act of charity on the part of the woman.  Charity is ordinarily a good thing, but whether to offer it is a personal decision.  Failing to be charitable is not murder.  Charity is not obligatory, and the fetus is not entitled to it.    

          •  That is an interesting angle (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            And one which can make sense unless -- one also recognizes that if someone is in danger off dying right in front of you and you have the power to save their life, you are under a moral obligation  to do all you can to do so. In some places it,is a crime to withhold life saving aid, such as refusing to go to the aid of a sinking ship on the high seas. Or in war, it would be a crime under some circumstances to abandon comrades to save your own life.

            And of course the forced birthers can flip the argument and say that by refusing to allow woman to have access to an abortion, they are saving a baby's life.

            You may belief a fetus is a life because it is a potential life. I understand that. But that is not what the forced birthers purport to believe. They argue that a fetus is a human life and by denying abortion, they behaving charitably toward another person they deem more worthy of charity that the woman who is hosting the fetus.

            •  If being a good Samaritan is legally required, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Womantrust, DSPS owl

              I don't think it extends to requiring people to put their own life at risk, donating parts or use of their own bodies, or placing an undue psychological, economic, or health burden on themselves.  I think there have been court cases where people would die without a blood transfusion or kidney transplant, and it was decided that people could not be legally required to donate blood or a kidney even if the potential recipient would die.  It seems to me that a fetus is in a comparable situation.  

              Of course, in most cases, it would be a kind and generous thing to donate blood or a kidney, but a person could have many legitimate reasons for not wanting to do it.  Kindness should not be obligatory.  

              Forbidding abortions is treating pregnant women as having fewer rights than other people concerning the use of their own bodies.  And discrimination against pregnant women ought to be illegal.  

    •  Those of us who believe abortion should be legal (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      but also rare—and I include myself in this camp—also generally believe strongly in helping women avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

      We don't want our country back, we want our country FORWARD. --Eclectablog

      by Samer on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:31:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As soon as you add the word rare (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheDuckManCometh, Womantrust

        You have completely ceded the argument. How rare is rare?  And who and on what basis gets to decide how to ensure abortions are rare? The forced birthers grab that argument and say that as long as abortion is accessible and easily obtained, it will be less rare.  And as long as they define many kinds of birth control as abortion they feel justified in making them less obtainable as wee, thus abortion is more rare.

        The basis of the argument can only be based on science and medicine and individual choice/conscience or on moral grounds. And as long as the pro-choice movement allows the forced birthers to frame the debate on moral grounds, the the argument will be in the end lost. Because who would stand to defend the right to murder, even if it is only for rare murders?  Which is what I see happening with so many young women these days. They have been raised to believe that fetuses are babies (as the ultrasounds "show") and while they don't believe it should be illegal, it is not something they would wish to defend.

        •  My fetus was a baby. Who are you to tell me he (0+ / 0-)

          wasn't? I held that fetus in my arms! It isn't up to you to tell me when that life became precious to me.

        •  You're missing a point. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not saying I want abortions to be hard to get, I'm saying that I would like society to reach the point where most women don't need to consider it.

          I am personally opposed to abortion in most cases, but I also am personally opposed to most, if not all, restrictions on abortion prior to viability: I believe that abortion decisions should be left to a woman and her physician.

          We don't want our country back, we want our country FORWARD. --Eclectablog

          by Samer on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:11:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I think that is a losing argument... (0+ / 0-)

      to say that it is a medical procedure just like having a tooth pulled. All life is on a continuum, from conception until death. We just use the arbitrary marker of 'inside the woman, or womb' as our marker for what we can control because it is within our bodies. To take away the humanity of it makes the pro-choice movement a cold, callous and unfeeling stance that moves away from women's rights and into an area where we are the arbiters of when life is valuable and worthy. That should not be our goal. We should acknowledge that all potential life has intrinsic value, but a woman's right to choose trumps that. If the pro-choice movement starts down the path of an abortion is equivalent to other medical procedures it degrades those who have grieved for their unborn caused by whatever reason.

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