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View Diary: The problem with presidents (290 comments)

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  •  Suspect all you want (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    annan, Kathy S

    about me being "ignorant" if it makes you feel better. I suppose that if I'm ignorant, I then seem less threatening to you.

    I see far more ignorance about economics on the far left side of the progressive movement. Too much conspiratorial thinking, bitterness, "us vs. them" mentality. Apart from that, the ideas are too simplistic, too immune to nuance. The goals are laudable; the means just too unsophisticated to take seriously. Economics is a very soft science indeed.  Most people who call themselves economic progressives, in my mind, urgently need a crash course or two in the laws of unintended consequences.

    My politics are by no means limited to social issues, though those are the issues where there are very clear dividing lines between right and wrong. When it comes to economic policy, I am content to support proposals to increase opportunity and prosperity by working within existing institutions, which "economic progressives" are too eager to cast aside (foolishly in my view).

    •  Supporting Plutocratic Hegemony is Stupid. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein, Superskepticalman

      Empty Vessel wrote an excellent diary entitle Rox/Sux Explained, arguing that the source of the debate here is that some folks value economic issues more, and others value social issues more, and that defines the divide between those who believe Obama has been an effective Progressive and those who believe he's been a destructive betrayer of Progressives.

      I agreed with the diarist, right up to the point where a false equivalence was declared between the two perspectives.

      Those who value social issues over economic/governance issues are well-intentioned, but myopic and clueless.

      I explained why in two comments under that diary.

      Here are a couple of excerpts, but if you actually care about the substance of this issue, and aren't simply trying to fight for your own ego gratification, I would suggest you read them both in their entirety before you reply to me again.

      ...They intend to teach us just who we are.

      A whole shitload of powerless nobodies.

      And if those powerless nobodies get to vote in meaningless elections, or not, or get to gay marry, or not, or have access to abortions, or not, why would the plutocrats give a flying fuck?

      Thus, the social issues are entirely meaningless once the social democracies are broken.

      We are in a fight for the survival of our Constitution and our way of life. Lose the economic/power fight, and none of the rest matters.

      And that's why those of us who prioritize economic and power issues realize that the cultural issues must take a backseat, and a much lower priority, to the survival of our democracy as we know it, or we will never see its cultural potential.

      ...if you vote for a Corporatist who collapses your economy and allows the economic elites to nullify the Bill of Rights, just so you can get gay married, have the option of an abortion, or maybe not get your ass kicked by a white cop, what have you accomplished?...

      ...The exploding power of the economic elites is an existential threat to everything this country stands for and everything we've worked for, for centuries.

      •  Oh my. Now I'm supporting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kathy S

        plutocratic hegemony! How stupid I must be to do so. Thanks for opening my eyes about how we're in a fight for the survival of the Constitution and our way of life and how Obama is the Great Betrayer. You're definitely not a melodramatic fanatic or anything. I'll go ahead and dedicate my life to the destruction of the Corporatists. Are those the same as the Plutocrats?

        •  And this is why we haven't been able to... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          One Pissed Off Liberal

          ...have nice things.

          Mockery does not trump evidence and logic.

          In case you haven't noticed, the people who argue your position here are getting evidence and logic.

          This happened to W's admin. It got to the point, finally, where die hard mindless supporters were finally looking at events as they occurred and were forced, by their lying eyes, to say, "Well, that's fucked up...".

          But look how much damage W and the Corporatist Rs and Ds were able to do in the six or seven years it took for that to happen.

          Now the Progressives are living that same script.

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