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View Diary: Update: Canada "Ghost Train"on Fire Hours Before Runaway (138 comments)

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  •  "crude oil from the Bakken Field in North Dakota." (14+ / 0-)

    Per the BBC, and every other credible news source. Please don't attempt politicize this human tragedy with your agenda.

    Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

    by earicicle on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:19:11 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Boy did you miss the point (3+ / 0-)

      Rail is raised as the alternative to Keystone XL frequently, especially with reference to the Bakken field, which shows the dangers there.  Sorry, but sticking your head in the sand does not alter the key relevance of this event for the Leystane debate.  Don't go all Rick Perry on us.  

      There are lessons to learn.  We need to consider them.

      Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

      by Mindful Nature on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:16:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One point you seem to have missed is that (6+ / 0-)

        tar sands oil is not the same thing as crude from the Bakken Field.  

        I always prefer precision in making a point.  An unfortunate combination of OCD and decades of working for lawyers.  

        We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

        by Observerinvancouver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:59:06 AM PDT

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        •  I have just realized (from reading comments (4+ / 0-)

          down thread) that I don't know for sure that crude from the Bakken Field is different from tar sands oil.  If I"m wrong, I apologize for pontificating without a license.  

          We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

          by Observerinvancouver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:05:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Virtually all batches of crude oil (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Observerinvancouver, Creosote

            are different.  Even from the same well over time, or from different wells (or parts of the tarsands) at any one point in time.

            So it is fair to say that two types of crude oil are different based on not really much knowledge at all.

            In this case, however, they are very different insofar as the bitumen from the tarsands isn't really "oil" (it's more like peanut butter in its physical properties like viscosity) while the Bakken oil is.

        •  The issues are similar (6+ / 0-)

          Shipping oil by rail is dangerous enough that it too needs to be regulated and can't be allowed to be an escape valve for polluters.  Both tar sands and conventional crude are toxic and hazardous.  Thus the special exemptions need to end.  Lawyers also know when distinctions aren't in fact material ones I would hope (even as they argue the opposite!)

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

          by Mindful Nature on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:30:13 PM PDT

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          •  Conflating the tar sands nd te Bakken Field is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            earicicle

            material.  People are spooked about the tar sands but not so much about the Bakken Field.  Whether either is justified is beside the point.  You appear to be using the tar sands to get people alarmed about the Bakken Field.

            BTW, as a Canadian (born in Alberta to boot) I'm pretty ashamed of the damage my country is causing.  

            We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

            by Observerinvancouver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:29:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Boy, did YOU miss the point. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        catullus, Observerinvancouver, Assaf
        Please don't attempt politicize this human tragedy with your agenda.
        Did you read mystery2me's comments below, and click on the links? We aren't getting any coverage here in the US because the MSM is still 24/7 on the SFO plane crash. As of this afternoon in Lac-Megantic: 5 dead, about 40 missing (and probably incinerated in the blast, the stories imply), hundreds homeless, and the heart of a town vaporized.

        Still think today is an excellent time to try to score political points? If you do, then you are a sociopath.

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 01:04:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then why isn't the venom directed at the (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Observerinvancouver, Rashaverak, NYFM

        Bakken field, which is every bit the environmental clusterfulck the tarsands is, instead of the tarsands?

        Yeah I realize it's good fun to bash All Things Canadian (heck, I've even taken timid steps in that direction myself from time to time!) but in this case the hypocrisy involved is high even for American standards.

        •  Hmmm. I didn't realize Bakken was that bad. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Roadbed Guy

          Certain things Canadian do deserve bashing.  But not all.  Did you see the Daily Show last week where Jason Jones did a comparison of the U.S. and Canadian banking systems?

          We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

          by Observerinvancouver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:34:31 PM PDT

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          •  Canadian vs. US banking systems? Yawn!! (0+ / 0-)

            why don't we discuss baby seal hunts, poutine, Terry Jacks, Celine Dion first?

            In any event, a major dig at the tarsands is the poor EROEI (i.e., the amount of energy that it takes to extract the gunk) which results in about 22% higher "wheel to wheel" emissions according to a European study (only 12% according to a US study)

            In any event, in this respect the Europeans regard the shale oil (not to be confused with oil shale, which is even worse, much worse in fact!) to be worse than the tarsands:

            The agreed baseline is based on calculations by the oil industry’s ‘CONCAWE’ body. The oil industry estimate that, on average, producing one megajoule of energy for transport fuel causes 88.3 grammes of CO2.

            According to the Commission’s proposal, different fuels and sources of fuel (or ‘feedstocks’ as they are known) get different ‘default values’ for their carbon intensity.

            The default value for petrol made from conventional crude oil in the proposal is 87.5 g CO2/MJ. Petrol made from natural bitumen (i.e. tar sands) = 107 g CO2/MJ; shale oil = 131.3 g CO2/MJ; coal-to-liquid = 172 g CO2/MJ; gas-to-liquid = 97 g CO2/MJ.

            link

            Plus there are all the issues involved with fracking (potential ground water contamination - which of course is also an issue with the tarsands), the larger footprint of the Bakken field, and the release of methane (a potent greenhouse gas) from the Bakken (which to my knowledge is not an issue with the tarsands).

            Basically it comes down to a value judgement which is worse - methinks it would depend on who hires the higher priced lawyers to argue their side!   My point here is that it is really weird to me how the tarsands are continually dissed (and rightfully so) while the Bakken basically gets a pass.

            •  Americans are much better mythologizers (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SoCalSal, Roadbed Guy

              than we are.  We belong more to the Oliver Cromwell school of portraiture.  Warts and all.  Maybe Americans like to demonize the tar sands to draw attention away from the Bakken Field.  

              We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

              by Observerinvancouver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:41:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Um. Where have you been? (0+ / 0-)

          The massive promotion of fossil fuel oroduction under Pbama has been a major part of the campaign including Bakken and Powder River Basin.  So, the only difference is thatBakken isn't subject to a choke point decision the way the tar sands are.  The idea that it has jack all to do with what is Canadian has to rank among the all time stupidest comments on dailykos on climate change.   Oil is dangerous hazardous toxic shit and we need to get off it yesterday.  

          Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

          by Mindful Nature on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:42:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've been right here (0+ / 0-)

            and have seen approximately a total of 2 anti-Bakken diaries EVER.

            And about that many anti-tarsands diaries EVERY DAY.

            The whole phenomenon  is nicely summarized in the reaction to this disaster - i.e., wrt knee-jerk blaming of the tarsands when they were not even involved.

            •  my goodness (0+ / 0-)

              you should read more of the climate change diaries, since many many of them rail against Obama's all-of-the above energy policies and the push to extract more fossil fuels, which includes Bakken.  Just because a different method (you are telling me there have been no anti-fracking diaries here?  Honestly?) used to extract this stuff, doesn't change any of the underlying criticisms of it. Of course the knee-jerk anti-environment responses tend to miss that.

              Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

              by Mindful Nature on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:08:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Excellent point! This is awful enough already. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      earicicle

      We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

      by Observerinvancouver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:53:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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