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View Diary: "They Like Sticking It To The United States" (330 comments)

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    •  Clearly... (53+ / 0-)

      ...I expect an official government reaction to the offers of asylum for Snowden, but the casual disregard for the actual harm that's been inflicted by us on those countries combined with the pitiful, self-serving complaint that THEY like sticking it to US, is nauseating coming from a Northeastern Democrat with the last name Menendez.

      all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

      by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:57:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, let's not forget that American "liberals" (48+ / 0-)

      have been historically just as hawkish as American "conservatives."  If not more so; after all, among the "conservatives" you'd find the occasional isolationist.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:57:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Traditional cowardly reaction to the right's (21+ / 0-)

        old charge of being "soft on Communism." As if moving to the right would ever silence right-wing hawks. After doing it for decades, it might not even be cowardice anymore, just a Pavlovian response...and to the degree we accept it we embody the Stockholm Syndrome along with Robert Menendez

        The Americas greatest political dynasty...the Kaan

        by catilinus on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:03:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It is time (46+ / 0-)

        to take "liberalism" away from the centrists.

        As the Overton Window has moved rightward at an alarming pace over the past several decades, yesterday's Republican rank and file are today's "centrists" and yesterday's moderate Republicans are today's "liberals."

        Yesterday's centrists are today's "extremist liberals" and one needs look no further than how Barack Obama - a right-leaning centrist - is tagged by the right as an "extremist liberal."  Real liberals have no representation in government despite that they are at very least a plurality of the US population.

        Far too many today claim the mantle of "liberal" despite the fact that they are anything but, and the evidence is all over this site.  It is a reflection of the Overton Window's current position.  Except that none of the attitudes have changed, only the terms used to describe them and the terms of the "debate."

        Real liberals are not even part of the conversation having been effectively marginalized.

        Arrrr, the laws of science be a harsh mistress. -Bender B. Rodriguez

        by democracy inaction on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:16:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it's just plain time (10+ / 0-)

          to abandon liberalism.  Even progressivism is kind of weak tea.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 02:44:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But for what? I don't know anymore.... n/t (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lady Libertine, 4kedtongue, corvo, Kombema

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 03:12:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  Nothing. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MrJayTee, Kombema

                I'll read the article someday, but really, what's left of the Left?  Nothing.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:20:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Think monks preserving knowledge for future (7+ / 0-)

                  Generations.  Monks with better outfits and hair.

                  Seriously, even if we just keep the light burning to guide people of goodwill to a better path, it's worth it.  I think our position is considerably better, but that's a different diary.  I believe there are more of us every day.  

                  The sooner we become one nation among many, tending our own garden, the sooner we become truly exceptional.

                  by MrJayTee on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:50:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, yeah, but (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MrJayTee, Tam in CA, Kombema

                    I give civilization maybe 20 years tops.  The ecosphere 50.  Civilization will obviously collapse first, as weather patterns and resource shortages tax all but the most brutal aspects of our infrastructure.

                    It's a noble and necessary enterprise, and all of us of good will must take part in it.  But we will fail.

                    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                    by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:57:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Don't make me spank you. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      corvo, 4kedtongue

                      The sooner we become one nation among many, tending our own garden, the sooner we become truly exceptional.

                      by MrJayTee on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:11:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Damn! I never thought... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      corvo, MrJayTee

                      ...living in San Francisco, that I'd pray to be taken by The (next) Big One, but you've convinced me that it might be the best of all options.  That, or a skydiving accident.

                      :)

                      all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                      by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:26:46 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well, I'm jealous. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        4kedtongue, MrJayTee

                        Even though it's been taken over by conservadem yuppies, San Francisco is still about as close to paradise as exists in this vale of tears.  If I had to witness the apocalypse, San Francisco would be the perfect place to do so.

                        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                        by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:29:05 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  On high ground here... (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          corvo, MrJayTee, lostinamerica

                          ...so the real estate (which is already priced out of this world) will be very valuable when I live on the island of San Francisco, off the coast of Concord, CA.  

                          And yes, you're right...the character of the city has certainly changed over the last 20 years that I've lived here.  They were filming Tales of the City here just a block or two away from my frst apartment in North Beach.  How I wish I'd been here in the 70's!  As an adult, that is.  

                          :)

                          all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                          by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:35:08 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You had to say "Tales of the City." (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MrJayTee, 4kedtongue

                            I think I'm going to cry now. :-))

                            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                            by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:40:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, Mouse... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MrJayTee, corvo

                            ...it's ok.  Have a joint and join me in the garden.

                            :)

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:43:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ever read Felice Picano's (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo, 4kedtongue

                            Like People in History?

                            The sooner we become one nation among many, tending our own garden, the sooner we become truly exceptional.

                            by MrJayTee on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:48:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, but I'm intrigued by the title. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo, MrJayTee

                            Googling now.

                            :)

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:49:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And Amazon-ing now... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo, MrJayTee

                            ...thanks for the rec!

                            :)

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:51:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're more than welcome. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            4kedtongue

                            At first I didn't like some of the characters much, didn't know where the story was going...and then it hit me.  I wish there were some way I could read it again for the first time.

                            The sooner we become one nation among many, tending our own garden, the sooner we become truly exceptional.

                            by MrJayTee on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 06:08:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no, no, no! (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            4kedtongue, MrJayTee

                            I want to have Mouse, not be Mouse.  

                            At least the Mouse in the first miniseries. :-)

                            But I'd more than settle for regular teas with Anna Madrigal.  

                            Really, I'm Mary Ann Singleton, except with the wrong plumbing and without her ambition.

                            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                            by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:53:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Mary Ann minus the ambition... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            MrJayTee, corvo, jayden

                            ...is preferable to Mary Ann with the ambition.  Fell in love with Laura Linney after that -- have seen everything she's been in.

                            And at the risk of hijacking my own diary, I met Armistead Maupin once n a bar here in the city.  I bought him a drink and he regaled me with a story about being Linney's Oscar date the year she was nominated.  She lost to Julia Roberts that year, and when seeing each other at an after party (I think he said Vanity Fair), Linney approached Roberts to introduce herslef and congratulate her on her win.

                            Linney, approaching Roberts and extending hand:  "Hi, I'm Laura Linney..."

                            Roberts, less than cordial:  "I know who you are."

                            Now I liked Erin Brockovich, but I couldn't STAND to see Julia Roberts after hearing that story.  

                            He was very gracious to give me the time of day, HUGE fan that I am!

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 06:02:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, Mary Ann came out all right in the end. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            4kedtongue, MrJayTee

                            I don't know if you were beaming through tears on the last page of Mary Ann in Autumn, but I certainly was.  Heck, just add a dog, and I'm emotional jello anyway (see my sig . . .).

                            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                            by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 06:07:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Paradise has left the United States (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          corvo, 4kedtongue

                          Even if you're rich here, that anything-can-happen atmosphere I loved in NYC decades ago, is gone.

                          I don't know all the places where it lives, but I know a few.  Soon as I can, I'm off to one of them, or one I have yet to discover.

                          But that life is still out there.

                          The sooner we become one nation among many, tending our own garden, the sooner we become truly exceptional.

                          by MrJayTee on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:47:21 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Hear, Hear! n/t (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MrJayTee, corvo

                    all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                    by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:57:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Democratic socialism (6+ / 0-)

              is one option -- the one Bernie Sanders opts for.  

              I agree that both liberalism and progressivism are failed ideologies.  We need something new for 21st century problems (and solutions).

              Both have been a disaster.  Just look where we are right now.  


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:11:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nope. (0+ / 0-)

                "Democratic Socialism" always means "support the Democrat whatever."  I've gotten maybe 2 billion solicitations from Democratic Socialists.  Boooooooriiingggggg.

                Surely socialists can do better than that.  Unless they really mean to call themselves "socialist-tinged Democrats."

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:16:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Hear hear (9+ / 0-)

          Beautifully said.

          I feel like a sucker for ever supporting Obama, every damn day lately.

          •  Who were we going to support? (7+ / 0-)

            Edwards?

            His dalliances aside, was he a better fit?

            Gravel? I like him, he's a bit off the beaten track.

            Biden? "Mr. CreditCards are forever non-dishargeable debt"?

            Hillary? More Obama than Obama and can I have a third way ticket to hegemony?

            Kucinich? If they're unidentified, it means we haven't identified them yet........

            point me in the left right direction.

            •  kucinich for sure (7+ / 0-)

              a great man, who would have been a great president. sadly, i believe if he had ever come within a prayer of the white house, he would have been neutralized.

              the bottom line is that you can choose to vote for whoever you like, even outside candidates, but the game is still 100% rigged. people like howard dean, ron paul, kucinich, gravel, never, ever, get a chance to win in the end.

            •  None of the above (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              J M F

              I bought into "lesser evil" logic for a long time. I worked my heart out for Obama, and gave the max in oth 04 and 08.

              Now I realize it makes no damn difference. From now on I'm voting my conscience even if the candidate I vote or "can't win."  I voted or Obama to keep his promises.  We're still if AF-Pak, Gitmo is still open,and Zhomeland Sekurity continues to erode our freedoms.

              Enough. Basta, I'm done with this Democratic Party establishment.  There are one individual Dems I can still support, but fewer than there used to be.

              And so far I not honk any of them will run for president.

            •  Hey, I was an Edwards supporter in the beginning (0+ / 0-)

              I really bought into his rhetoric of the Two Americas. This was all way pre-scandal, of course.

              If anything, I think the Obama presidency has taught us that Newton's Laws of Motion are alive and well in politics. The system has its own inertia, and counteracting that inertia in order to effect real change is a difficult, lengthy and time-consuming process. In other words no matter whether Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Kucinich or Omir had been elected president, the end result would be just about what it is right now with regard to most important issues. (Granted, Obama has done a lot better job with health care than I would have.)

              Steal a trillion, too big to fail. Steal a thousand, go to jail.

              by Omir the Storyteller on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:14:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  so so true (8+ / 0-)
          Real liberals have no representation in government despite that they are at very least a plurality of the US population.
          And this is no accident. Real liberals don't believe in bribery - um, I mean privately funded political campaigns, but "pragmatic" "centrist" democrats do. This is "market-based" democracy now. This, almost by itself, has moved the Overton window ever rightward and dis-enfranchised the ethical core of the Democratic Part of the mid 20th century.

          Not only does this window dictate the acceptable limits of political nominees, but it also defines what's safe to put on television. Hence the winning formula mastered jointly by the political party machines, the mainstream media, and their corporate overseers.

          The result (to butcher the famous saying)? Trees fall in the USA forest all over the place, but in utter silence.

          For instance, foreign policy-wise, the view abroad is that [and I speak only metaphorically] our president has shot himself in both feet and limps around the Oval office now having utterly alienated and embarrassed the governments of France, Austria, Spain, Italy, and Portugal, with Germany & Russia not far behind. And he can forget about broad swaths of South America.

          These twin blunders - the intelligence failure (Snowdon was on the plane) and the diplomatic failure (pressuring the heads of Europe to railroad the Bolivian president's aircraft in direct contravention of international law) is one such tree.

          It is a strange form of democracy that produces political outcomes that reward the few and punish the many, despite the energetic protests of the many.  --Paul Craig Roberts
        •  I'll get it started (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lying eyes, duhban, Fogiv

          New Rule:
          From now on anyone who doesn't adore Edward Snowden --himself a Ron Paul supporter--may no longer refer to himself as a liberal.

          Because? Obama.

          This will work. No, really.

          •  I can see the logic in this... (15+ / 0-)

            ...if adoration is a component.  But it seems that those of us who favorably regard what Snowden did aren't in the habit of adoring anyone...particularly politicians who fail to follow through on promises to restore some accountability to the very programs exposed by Snowden.  Adoration is not part of our political DNA.  

            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

            by 4kedtongue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:02:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  what does it matter if he is a ron paul supporter? (7+ / 0-)

            let me rephrase your statement:

            From now on anyone who doesn't adore Edward Snowden --who stood against the evil empire for the cause of freedom--may no longer refer to himself as a liberal without running the risk of being laughed at by actual liberals.

            better.

            •  I'm not even sure (11+ / 0-)

              how much of a Paul supporter he is.  We know that he gave him money once. But his statements about Pres. Obama sound like he was an Obama supporter too.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:13:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  of course (4+ / 0-)

                it's mindless "let's get him" stuff.

                Dear NSA: I am only joking.

                by Shahryar on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:08:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Rather than just vaguely thinking... (0+ / 0-)

                ...that it "sounds like" he was an Obama supporter, let's maybe directly inform ourselves instead by reading Snowden's own account that he did not vote for Obama:

                Link

                A lot of people in 2008 voted for Obama. I did not vote for him. I voted for a third party
                Of course he goes on to say:
                But I believed in Obama's promises. I was going to disclose it [but waited because of his election]. He continued with the policies of his predecessor.
                Which may in fact be utter bollocks given that in January 2009 he was saying shit like this on ArsTechnica:

                Link

                [W]ho the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this? [T]hose people should be shot in the balls.

                “WTF NYTIMES … Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus christ they’re like wikileaks[....] They’re reporting classified shit

                And I suspect he's quite the Paulite given he described Congressman Ron as "dreamy." (Yes, really.) Well, and given that among his rants on Ars Technica were gold-bug-ism (seriously, anyone who advocates a return to the Gold Standard needs to turn in their "Living in the 21st Century" card), and, to me most damning as someone only a decade or so away from Social Security eligibility, this gem:
                [S]ave money? cut this social security bullshit[....] Somehow, our society managed to make it hundreds of years without social security just fine.
                Pervasive NSA surveillance techniques? Yeah, they need to be exposed to the light of day where excessive, and even beyond that, subject to strict accountability and oversight when they actually are necessary and don't overreach--and necessity needs to be drawn very narrowly. They have always needed such attention from and most importantly vigilance, regardless of the winds of political fashion at any given time.

                But Edward Snowden? A spoiled, twentysomething, paleolibertarian crank who seems to be getting far too much of a free pass from too many of us on the left for maybe--maybe, since honestly I'm not sure how much I can believe him given the suspiciously vague hand-waving involved in what he claims to actually be technically possible in the surveillance of telephony--being a stopped clock on this one thing.

                As to everything else the guy believes, as evidenced by his own words on Ars Technica? Frankly, fuck Edward Snowden. Social Security is not wasteful "bullshit." It's what built our liberal society from the New Deal on, until it came under further attack within the last three decades or so from an unholy alliance of neoliberals and paleos with viewpoints pretty much identical to Snowden's on the social safety net.

                Thanks, but no thanks.

                "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                by Progressive Witness on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 08:03:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  still completely irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

                  and given the gravity of his situation and the importance of the issues at stake here (constitutional government), i think to care about his political leanings is about as thoughtful as caring about his haircut.

                  •  Of course it's irrelevant. It has to be. (0+ / 0-)

                    Any facts relating Snowden that might raise any questions about his credibility, knowledgeability, or judgement must be irrelevant by definition. This much has become rather obvious in discussions of this topic.

                    If I had to bet, I'd go with the likelihood that you're probably under 30 yourself; frankly the notion that you would dismiss a frankly contemptuous desire to rid us of the "bullshit" of Social Security as just a trivial political leaning no more important than a haircut is profoundly alarming. Don't really even know what else to say to that. The way a whole raft of progressive principles that clearly are anathema to Snowden from the writings of his own pre-leak life are rhetorically swept aside basically for the sake of Snowden (and sorry, no, the cause of Snowden and the cause of constitutional government are not one and the same) is far less likely to convince those of us on the left who as yet remain unconvinced than all the dismissive hand-waving about how all other things Snowden are off the table as "irrelevant."

                    But the core thing about me that makes me take the time and attention to wonder about all these other things about the events and claims around Snowden is the fact that for most of my adult life I've worked with data networks, and the whole way these claims have been presented (by Snowden and by Greenwald) in terms of how actual servers and communications networks work doesn't entirely mesh with my long-term understanding of same, to an extent that makes me wonder how much direct knowledge of the tapping-in structures Snowden actually has, and if it is as much as he claims. (OTOH I don't doubt that he actually is in possession of the general kinds of documents he claims. Harder to actually bullshit that.)

                    But for the things he claims are happening to be happening, edict from government, if said edict truly exists, isn't enough to actually make it happen: there have to be additional, concrete bits of hardware and software added at loooots of places. I've yet to have it explained to me by advocates just what and where those things are, and what they do (or even a convincing subset of same).

                    Instead, I'm dismissed as "irrelevant" for even wondering. I can't really unlearn the things that make me want to raise questions, which kind of puts brakes on my ability to go nicely along with "your questions are irrelevant" without first lobotomizing myself. That kind of defensiveness and dismissiveness tends to convince me in the opposite direction of that held by the dismisser. Just sayin'.

                    PW

                    "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                    by Progressive Witness on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:26:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  two entirely separate things (0+ / 0-)

                      one, is your interest in snowden's political leanings, hair color, ice cream flavor preference, boxers or briefs. all irrelevant. give him a congressional medal of honor, a presidential medal of freedom, and he can get on with his life. he has done a heroic service to this country and thats all i need to know about him. do you go around questioning the political leanings of congressional medal of honor winners? of course not. its irrelevant.

                      second, is your question about how exactly do these government programs work? i think that is a VERY relevant question. we need to know a lot more. clearly, snowden had access to bits and pieces of the puzzle. we are learning more every day, but not fast enough and certainly not the right way. that is why we need obama to name an independent council with the charge of investigating, without regard for state secrets, the extent of domestic surveillance by the national security establishment.

                      america needs those answers now!

                      •  Oh FFS. (0+ / 0-)

                        This isn't a fucking hair color blog, an ice cream blog, or an underwear blog. Are you really this disconnected? You're actually cavilling about me raising political questions on a political blog about matters of political relevance, that's how far gone you are into the cult of personality around Snowden. You can't see it, you won't see it, so you really have no sense of how freaky it comes across to the uninitiated. And every encounter like this with a True Believer makes me exponentially less likely to join.

                        I've wanted answers about the NSA since probably before you were actually aware of it--since a time when it didn't officially exist--but I am increasingly suspicious of Snowden as a qualified, rational, or reliable actor in the conversation, and I suppose it's actually unfair to Snowden that my opinion in that is negatively colored by those deifying him. But by all means, continue on with the worship. I'm just baffled as to why you think it'll convince anyone of Snowden's veracity. Sad, really.

                        PW

                        "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                        by Progressive Witness on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:06:30 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  i am not trying or even hoping to convince you... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...of anything. i agree 100% that there is zero chance of that happening. most of us who argue here do so (a) in hopes of convincing those who may be silently reading these comments or (b) just because its fun to discuss these things.

                          i agree this is a political blog, but your interest is Snowden's politics is still irrelevant. Snowden is not the subject of this debate, even though thats what the government-media industrial complex is trying to make the debate about. Any reference to Snowden is distracting us from the real issue here, which is government spying on US citizens without warrants. we could have found out about the government spying because a laptop got misplaced somehow, or because of a congressional investigation, or because of journalists doing real journalism for once, or because the news were leaked by a hardcore leftist, a hardcore winger, a moderate person, a libertarian, etc. None of that is relevant to the real issue. the real issue is government spying.

                          •  Yeah, much as you want to... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...you don't have the standing to simply declare as off the table those aspects of the topic that you don't want to allow as part of the conversation, especially when those aspects bear on the veracity of the very source you're relying on and placing on a high pedestal. Funny how praise of Snowden is on-topic but questions about him? Verboten. Have fun trying to enforce that. Those "silently reading these comments" get to hear about that side of it too, as much as you might want to prevent that.

                            PW

                            "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                            by Progressive Witness on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:29:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  im not trying to enforce anything (0+ / 0-)

                            i am just telling you your concern about his politics is irrelevant and a distraction. you are of course free to disagree with me (have i ever said otherwise?). and when i say distraction, i mean "a distraction that provides cover to the statists running and abetting our tyrannical government".

                            i have not placed Snowden on any pedestal. I dont CARE if he is a heroin addicted goat molester who pees in the shower. He has performed a great service to our nation, which is clearly independent of any other personal characteristics he may or may not have. I place great value in the information that he has provided us, and i dont see how his own personal characteristics have any bearing on that information. Are you saying that you think the powerpoint slides were fabricated? if so, dont you think the government would have said so already?

                          •  Not at all. (0+ / 0-)

                            But Wired pegged them pretty well:

                            Crude vector art and bullet points leave too much to the imagination, even when it’s the most highly classified crude vector art and bullet points the public has ever seen.
                            And the additional slide that supposedly was a smoking gun of an official back-door into FB, etc?
                            But in context, that additional line adds little. The slide is intended to distinguish PRISM collection from the NSA’s raw internet wiretapping. It doesn’t address whether the collection is broad and automatic, or narrow and mediated by lawyers at the target companies, as subsequent reporting by other news outlets has indicated.
                            I "collect information directly from Facebook's servers" every time I point a browser at it. That language doesn't demonstrate that a hardware or software backdoor has actually been installed, let alone what that backdoor does if it exists. Greenwald says he "won't public NSA tech methods" but unfortunately, without at least some crumbs of technical detail--and the slides we've seen aren't even crumbs--I have no way of knowing if the claims being made about a) the existence of a backdoor and b) how powerful it is are a lot of non-technical handwaving. There's a whole cottage industry of believing otherwise absent such hard proof, but I ain't on that bandwagon.

                            Or is even the slightest skepticism founded in technical background "irrelevant"?

                            PW

                            "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                            by Progressive Witness on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:10:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  thats why we need a special prosecutor (0+ / 0-)

                            because right now we DONT know for certain the extent to which the government is spying on all of us without warrants. but the fact that a LOT of snowden haters here on this very site often state that he has revealed NOTHING NEW, is to me reason enough to suggest that the government has a lot of explaining to do.

                          •  Whoops! Wired linky thing: (0+ / 0-)

                            "No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream." --MLK

                            by Progressive Witness on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:13:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Yay! My turn.... (4+ / 0-)

              let me rephrase your statement:

              From now on anyone who doesn't adore Edward Snowden --who stood against the evil empire by running screaming to any country that would take him for causes that, frankly, no one but himself is yet sure of--may no longer refer to himself as a liberal without running the risk of being laughed at by about a hundred people on Daily Kos who really, really like anyone who sticks it to Obama.

              Definitely better.

          •  I think this is avoiding reality (19+ / 0-)

            It is just taking the government talking points and using the cutesy and hackneyed joke language, that avoids complete sentences and more importantly complete thoughts, because it is about tribal defense of team rather than confronting what's happening.

            What matters here has nothing to do with adoring Snowden.  It wouldn't matter what Snowden's voting history was.  

            We have secret courts with tremendous power, redefining legality, and some people are willing to pretend that this is open government.  

            •  Exactly. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fogiv, ord avg guy

              In Snowden World we will have no hackneyed joke sentences that avoids incomplete thoughts. Plus no confronting of team, or rather, what's happening.

              Oh shit.

              •  are you comfortable (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                4kedtongue

                with the level of secret government?

                does it make you feel more secure?

                when the government of the USA forced the plane carrying the president of Bolivia to turn around, do you feel it was protecting you and carrying out our national will?

                do you feel that the Congress, Courts and President are moving toward the ideals of our nation's founders?

                I am not comfortable with the level of secret government we've got.  It doesn't make me feel more secure.  When Evo Morales' plane was forced down, I believe it was acting in direct opposition to human decency, democracy, and diplomatic wisdom.  I believe that the Congress, Courts and our President are siding with King George against the people of the United States.

                I bet Philip Crowley never voted for Ron Paul.

                •  Of course not. Yeesh. (0+ / 0-)
                  I am not comfortable with the level of secret government we've got.
                  Neither am I or 99% of the people posting here.

                  That said, my verdict is still out on Edward Snowden.

                  Do you see that? Do you see how the two can be different issues?

                  •  a verdict on edward snowden? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    4kedtongue

                    THAT'S what worries you here?

                    we have a secret court which is preempting our entire judiciary and you are worried about a verdict on snowden?

                    why aren't you talking about a 'verdict' on clapper? or obama?  

                    to make this about snowden is  to show a great indifference to the transformation of our ideals.

                    it used to be, we knew our government was spying on us a lot, but at least we knew it was wrong.

                    now a lot of people are trying to say it's right.

                    if snowden is the issue to you, the transformation of our society into a police state, by design of an elite, is not.

      •  And people wonder why (4+ / 0-)

        Rand and Ron Paul have appeal......

        It's the wars, Stupid!

      •  33 recs and counting (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MrJayTee, 4kedtongue, Lady Libertine

        for a comment that would've gotten me  bojo'd just a year ago,

        Small wonder Kos spends so little time on his own site these days.  He's lost control of it.  It's no longer a Party veal pen.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:18:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So, corvo, "conservatives" are ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Zinman

        ... better than "liberals"? LMAO!

        Perhaps the Senator from New Jersey doesn't think the people in South America are so petty that they keep forty- and sixty-year grudges?

        I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

        by Tortmaster on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:57:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  LBJ was a liberal, that's why I'm not .. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        J M F

        In the '60's when college students, including myself, were protesting the Vietnam War in cities like Berkeley, where I was going to school, we were marching in the streets and suffering regular beatings by the police to protest LBJ's war in Vietnam.

        We adopted other names for ourselves, like "radicals", instead of remaining in the liberal tent. Not that we didn't support LBJ when he supported civil rights in the South, but our battle was the ever growing US war in Vietnam, and LBJ was our adversary in that context.

        So, when you speak of the historical hawkishness of liberals, please leave out the righteous Democrats who opposed the war in Vietnam by adopting other names for our cause. In fact, I believe that the majority of the American left in the '60's were Democrats, and that they rejected being labeled as "liberals" for exactly the same reason that I did.

        Carbon di-oxide in the atmosphere is now 400ppm. That is "Climate Cluster Chaos" of the worst order if there ever was one. (hat tip to JeffW for CCC)

        by Zinman on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:31:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •   How very sane of him to state the obvious. (0+ / 0-)

      In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

      by Sixty Something on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 12:29:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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