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View Diary: "They Like Sticking It To The United States" (330 comments)

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  •  There was a brief moment, perhaps several (0+ / 0-)

    when we were, arguably, more decent and moral and deserving of praise, relatively speaking, compared to most other countries, like when we separated from the British, when we supported the Haitian revolution, when we finally ended slavery and gave women the vote and helped destroy Nazi Germany.

    But damn, so few and far between, and so long ago and hard to reimagine.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 03:19:54 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  If you really convinced people (3+ / 0-)

      that things aren't getting worse, why would they feel motivated to change things now?  "It's always been this way," is a call to cynical apathy.

      •  It HAS mostly always been this way (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Don midwest

        Sorry, I'm not in the rah rah business. Reality is reality and if we have to spin things to win people over, we've already lost.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:00:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          4kedtongue

          what are you doing here? ;)

          Sorry, I'm not in the rah rah business.
          Seriously, there is often value in "spinning things" to win people over. You haven't lost until you give up completely. I'm not in the rah rah business either, but I'll be damned if I'm going quietly into that good night, whether I've "already lost" or not.

           

          •  I'm not about to lie about US history (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Don midwest

            to win anyone over. If you disagree, then we'll have to disagree. Hell, I'm not even into smoothing things over. When I'm dealing with an adult, I expect adult behavior, at least where it really matters, like the ability and willingness to accept things as they are and not as we wish they were. The US has killed or caused the killings of millions of people throughout its history, here and abroad. How does one "spin" that? By claiming that it was for a "good cause"?

            Btw the US has also done good things, and I'm not about to deny that either.

            I say the same about my birth country too, Israel. I don't do puff, either way.

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 04:56:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Who, exactly, in this diary or (0+ / 0-)

              discussion is lying about US History?
               

              The US has killed or caused the killings of millions of people throughout its history, here and abroad
              I don't disagree with that. But the comment I see you reacting to contains this:
              You don't have to believe that were ever really a shining city on a hill to recognize that we're getting dirtier rather than shinier, and this isn't the business as usual.
              What, exactly, are you contesting here?
               
              •  I guess I don't believe we're getting dirtier (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Don midwest

                Rather, we're devolving to where we used to be, be it regarding race relations, militarism, paranoia, imperialism, misogyny, etc. We were never quite the country many of us like to claim we were, just as Obama isn't quite the "greatest president evah" that some still like to delude themselves into believing. You can't fix a problem until you recognize its nature and severity.

                I guess I'm saying that I'm what some call a "realist", preferring to see things are they are, not as I'd like them to be. To suggest that that's defeatism is just silly. Realism is a starting point, not a justification for inaction.

                "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                by kovie on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 05:40:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You seem to be confusing realism with acceptance (0+ / 0-)

                  I think there are honest disagreements with your opinion, starting with its defeatism. You can be of the opinion that you're not being defeatist, but that doesn't change the fact that others see you that way.

                  To appear to claim some kind of "smarter position" because in you're opinion, you're more realistic than others is not terribly conducive to change, either.  
                   

                  •  That's the old moon is made of cheese argument (0+ / 0-)

                    To state things as they objectively are is neither defeatist nor optimistic, and no, we are not all entitled to our facts. What one does with the facts and how one predicts they will unfold is where one finds defeatism or optimism.

                    When I say that we have always been far from perfect and often just plain godawful I'm not expressing an opinion, nor saying that we're never going to get any better. I'm expressing indisputable fact, and leaving the door open on whether we can ever get any better.

                    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                    by kovie on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:10:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Supported the Haitian revolution? (0+ / 0-)

      Gave lip service to it, at most, and ran away screaming once it became clear that "THOSE people" were now going to be in control.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 02:50:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, not really (0+ / 0-)

        What happened was that we changed administrations and parties, and thus policies. The mostly anti-slavery and pro-British Federalists supported the revolution. The mostly pro-slavery and pro-French Jeffersonians did not.

        Ironically, it was the Haitian rebels who made the lopsided US win in the Battle of New Orleans, which made Jackson a national hero, possible, by weakening the French forces. Were the Jeffersonians grateful? No.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 04:28:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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