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View Diary: Breaking: Chief Justice John Roberts, Not the Obama admin is the Power Over NSA Surveillance (562 comments)

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  •  Hate to break it to ya... (8+ / 0-)

    But the NSA and FISA are separate entities.

    NSA falls under the Executive Branch.

    Obama is the Chief Executive.

    Just because FISA is a rubber stamp doesn't prevent Obama from making changes at the NSA.

    The excuses for Obama's behavior have long since passed the point of predictability neccessary to qualify as an absurd production of Kabuki Theater.

    by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:33:28 AM PDT

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    •  Perhaps you didn't read my prior two posts, (4+ / 0-)

      which seems common from the simplistic-solution folks in these putrid arguments, unfortunately.

      I'm not sure Obama actually sees a significant problem, considering that he habitually came out defending an agency position in which he was presumably informed.

      That is, he's heard of what they do and came out defending the status quo - he does that in almost every case I've seen in his political history that I checked into during his first Presidential run, i.e., even since his time in Chicago.  He has also shown a historical willingness to change alignment, but only after very deliberate analysis, over a long period of time, from significant counter-information - we've all seen this during his Presidency, no need to look back too far on that aspect of his process.

      Plus, let's add in that the NSA is a black box organization and telling them to do some things differently will inherently have them throwing out examples of how their information has helped X number of other agencies, and those same agencies will push back on the Executive with the same arguments: CIA, FBI, law enforcement, even the DoD - all those areas will complain that they want and already rely upon this "crucial" data from the NSA.  As if that matters, but we're talking a out people working out of context of the Constitution and not caring, by this point.

      Until people push back significantly and force Obama to sloooooowly take a more critical view of how far FISA has fallen and given the Constitution away to the government through NSA as its gateway, he will figure that the noise doesn't matter as much as what internal agencies are telling him about national security and so forth.  This is one of his most severe deficiencies as an Executive, IMHO.

      I'll bet that he's not going to see a simple solution to offer the NSA, such as "stop collecting Z data" at this time.  Therefore, he's not going to have a solution which you prescribe.  It's not how he works, from any view of his processes that I've seen - if the larger picture can't be simply resolved, he takes forever.  He always wants people on all sides to like him and feel satisfied with the final result.  It's stupid.

      However, I would not be surprised if he has some of his own people working with those same agencies to figure out what's meaningful and what's overreach to determine where some things can be pared back.  I'd give that reasonable odds of existing, but would give much lower odds of seeing the data collection activities and associated, interdependent arms already working with that data flow actually being curtailed in this Administration.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:29:14 AM PDT

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      •  Bottom line: (4+ / 0-)

        Obama is the Chief Executive.

        And, as for "forcing" Obama - or any Dem Leader for that matter - how do you propose to do that?

        1 - Obama isn't up for re-election.  Good luck "forcing him".

        2 - Obama's re-election demonstrated conclusively that Dem officials will not be held accountable for their pro-1%, pro-Empire, pro-Security State policies.

        And - notwithstanding all of the points you raised, there is one key fact that stands on its own:

        Obama is the Chief Executive.

        It doesn't matter how much bitching and moaning departments under Obama engage in - He is their boss.  

        And the accountability rests with Obama, not underlings, not agency heads - Obama.

        The excuses for Obama's behavior have long since passed the point of predictability neccessary to qualify as an absurd production of Kabuki Theater.

        by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:49:56 AM PDT

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        •  We do not have a system of government in which (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wader, sunbro, freakofsociety

          one person or any group of people holds unchecked power, including the president.

          Obama is not a king. Both the Supreme court and the Congress have checking powers over him.

          "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

          by zenox on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:43:03 AM PDT

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          •  Question: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dallasdoc

            So Obama has no control over Executive department agencies?

            Just a passive observer, blown this way & that by the whims of Congress & the Courts?

            Isn't it amazing how powerless Obama is?  Why, I'm shocked the man can even give a speech without Congressional approval.

            Of course - Powerlessness You Can Believe In - yet another BS meme / excuse to try and absolve Obama of any blame.  

            The excuses for Obama's behavior have long since passed the point of predictability neccessary to qualify as an absurd production of Kabuki Theater.

            by Johnathan Ivan on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 01:56:26 PM PDT

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        •  Sorry, I just don't think you care about (4+ / 0-)

          reality of how government works (or, doesn't) in this particular case and want a simple solution.

          That would be great if possible, but arguing for something that's unlikely doesn't help to discuss the issue.  Find ways to influence the groups involved that I mentioned - the President and his office, Congressional representative and our peers - and we may eventually begin to see the roots of movement, here.

          There's too much embedding of processes, careers and money for a single act or person to turn the ship around, by this point in time.

          We got the President on our side for marriage equality, I don't see why a Constitutional issue that can cross into even Teabagger concerns is beyond our ability to have an impact on via speaking out and PR.

          "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

          by wader on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:53:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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