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View Diary: PRISM: What It's Really All About (196 comments)

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  •  You are not afraid because (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emelyn

    there is nothing to fear.

    "OMG the government can get my email and phone records if I'm ever investigated!"

    Everyone here will continue going about their daily lives, making diary after diary, post after post, exercising their speech by offering up harsh criticism of the "police state" in which they can say such things with zero fear of repercussions.

    Your "I am not afraid!" implies there is actually something to be afraid of.

    Please proceed, Governor.

    by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 06:08:14 PM PDT

    •  There's been something (9+ / 0-)

      to be afraid of for quite awhile now, actually. Easy to ignore, but happening nonetheless. Now it's full blown, people are pretending they're just now finding out about it. That's okay with me. Once everybody is forced to notice, there's an avenue for redress.

      So please ignore away. For everyone ignoring (as if our loss of constitutional and human rights means nothing), ten more are looking right at it and don't much like what they see.

      •  Is that so? (0+ / 0-)

        What is there to be afraid of? I will continue do what I want (so long as I'm not breaking the law) and say what I want and living a perfectly normal life.

        How much you want to bet for the next 20 years and beyond it will continue as such?

        Please proceed, Governor.

        by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:27:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My last 34 years (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pluto, YucatanMan, ask, LilithGardener

          haven't been all that Cracker Jack, since you mention it. But you'd have to know who I am in order to understand where that's coming from. We got used to watchers a long, long time ago. There have even been times (of dodging bullets) when the watchers seemed to be our only friends.

          Many here do know who I am. I surely recognize that many don't, but if you really want to score Brownie points on these particular issues, you should probably avoid me. FYI.

        •  it's not about you (6+ / 0-)

          It's about the possibility to abuse the technology to surveil protesters, journalists, politicians, etc. Less technological means were used in the past; new tech makes it easier.

          It's also about the principle.

          It's about what the diarist writes about, keeping people afraid and obedient. It works on a lot of people, which makes everything harder.

          Getting people to stand up, getting people to see through the propaganda, is hard enough.

        •  one thing that scares me (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eric Nelson, LilithGardener, Joieau

          is the abundance of expensive equipment our cops have for defending corporate property, and the paucity of funding they have for stuff like processing rape kits. That whole "to serve and protect" doesn't pertain to individual citizens, unless they also happen to be corporations. Lots of folks get away with murder.

          •  ^^^ THIS^^^ (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lisa, Joieau

            And the various ways they discourage reporting, and then don't bother investigating even when someone does report all leads to "violent crime in our city is going down," which then is used to justify the current draconian policing measures, the extra-jurisdictional spying, and the extra-judicial killings.

            When police are called by a neighbor reporting "a man on the porch with a gun" and the police open fire without bothering to announce themselves or ask the man what he holding, or tell the man to drop what he is holding... it's a sad day for all of us.

            When the police can open fire on a man holding a hose, who is watering the lawn... we see how the "serve and protect" mission has been replaced with "neutralize any possible threat."

            They face little or no repercussions, and years later the city PD has to settle a claim for wrongful death, which, of course if paid for by the tax payers, at the expense of simple investigation, such as actually testing all the back logged rape kits.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:14:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Ahhhh, the easy dismissal of someone who (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau

          can take "equal protection under the law" for granted.

          Your comment says it all. You can afford to be dismissive; you have not yet be subjected to the Shock Doctrine.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:06:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Not that it wasn't difficult (5+ / 0-)

      But if ES could access the data, how can we be sure it hasn't been accessed by others with ill intent?

      How can we be sure our congress critters are only being bribed by unlimited donations and not also by someone accessing their every digital record?

      There was a reason for the Fourth Amendment to be included in our constitution and it wasn't just because "nobodies" like us don't like our stuff riffled through.

      Sorry, your "assurances" are like condescending little pats on our heads.

      •  You can't. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban
        But if ES could access the data, how can we be sure it hasn't been accessed by others with ill intent?
        You can't anymore than you can be sure a police officer isn't going to use a warrant to plant evidence. So should we get rid of search warrants?

        If you need to be sure something will never be abused, we might as well not have any form of law enforcement or national security agency. It's literally impossible for any method or form of investigation to never be abused.

        How can we be sure our congress critters are only being bribed by unlimited donations and not also by someone accessing their every digital record?
        Who's that someone? I suppose it's also theoretically possible for a private company, say, Yahoo to go through a Congressman's personal email and use it to blackmail him. Highly improbable, though in any case.
        There was a reason for the Fourth Amendment to be included in our constitution and it wasn't just because "nobodies" like us don't like our stuff riffled through.
        Your phone records and digital information you willingly send through your providers are not your personal property, so the 4th amendment doesn't apply. Also, even if it did, it goes through a FISA court anyway.

        Please proceed, Governor.

        by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:25:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Total bs response (6+ / 0-)

          In all your attempts at minimizing and creating false equivalencies, you forgot a few things.

          Things that are not secret can be redressed in a court of law. Including things like planting evidence while carrying out a warrant.

          If a private entity misuses its private data it can be held accountable. In a court of law. Without being able to hide behind "national security."

          If something is theoretically possible and there is money to be made then I guarantee someone (or many someone's) are doing it. What would stop them? Highly improbable my ass.

          •  OK so.. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban
            Things that are not secret can be redressed in a court of law. Including things like planting evidence while carrying out a warrant.
            So if someone wrongfully reads your email about what you had for dinner, it can't be redressed in a court of law?

            You know the police can, with a warrant, get your telephone and email records without telling you, right? This has been true since long before Prism. And for your telephone records, long before the internet. Hell, they can secretly listening on your phone calls with a warrant.

            Please proceed, Governor.

            by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:51:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  still with the bs responses (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau, YucatanMan, Lisa, ask, LilithGardener
              So if someone wrongfully reads your email about what you had for dinner, it can't be redressed in a court of law?
              If some hacker gets into my gmail account I can file charges against them. Not so if someone like ES taps into Prism to get at my email.
              You know the police can, with a warrant, get your telephone and email records without telling you, right? This has been true since long before Prism. And for your telephone records, long before the internet. Hell, they can secretly listening on your phone calls with a warrant.
              How do you get such a warrant? Probable cause. From a judge whose name and whose court is public. But then you already knew that. And that is NOT what is going on with the "streamlining" they are doing the case of Prism.
              •  Here's the thing. (0+ / 0-)
                How do you get such a warrant? Probable cause. From a judge whose name and whose court is public. But then you already knew that. And that is NOT what is going on with the "streamlining" they are doing the case of Prism.

                OK, to start do you agree that at least some investigations need to remain secret from the public?

                Please proceed, Governor.

                by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:09:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Did I ever say that? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pluto, Joieau, Lisa

                  And why is that even a question? No one questions the need for security investigations.

                  We are questioning why the NSA needs to capture and retain everyone's digital data without specific warrants. And also that they don't seem to care enough to protect it from anyone that wants to get at it. There are lots of folks out there motivated by money and power...lots more than are motivated by conscience. What is keeping them from misusing this huge motherlode the NSA is building on us all?

                  Seriously, you act as if these intelligence agencies would never do anything bad with the tools they're given when history proves that a big old fat lie. You also seem to think that their security measures on their own frakin data is just peachy when duh....not so much!

                  •  I didn't say you did. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    duhban

                    It wasn't a rhetorical question.

                    The date is already being captured by private companies, to the point that email addresses and even cell phone numbers are bought and sold. In North Carolina if you get a traffic ticket you end up getting 15 letters in the mail from Lawyers soliciting their services. Ever buy a house? Telemarketing phone calls abounds after that. How the hell did they know I just bought a house?

                    We are in the information age and the NSA is in the information business, so to speak.

                    Frankly I would much rather the NSA have access to my info (with a warrant) than email spammers and telemarketers.

                    Please proceed, Governor.

                    by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:17:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Totally false equivalencies (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Joieau

                      When you get a ticket or buy a house that creates a public record. Public records are, well, public.

                      P.S. Buying a house creates a DEED that is registered with some local government that takes care of land.

                      P.P.S. Getting a ticket won't generate 15 letters from lawyers but getting arrested will.

                      So basically your real problem is that you don't understand the difference between public and private.

                      Here's some types of private data that the NSA has no business saving or viewing (without a specific warrant):
                      1. The breakup conversation you had with your girlfriend where you cried like a baby.
                      2. Your emailed confirmation from Walgreens telling you your prescription for Lithium is ready to be picked up.
                      3. The texts between you and that hot chick down the hall at work.

                      And the problem is that the NSA has ALL of that now, whether you like it or not. No warrant needed, or so they tell us, because some secret law was made by a secret judge who said it okay.

                      What could go wrong?

                      •  Just a couple corrections. (0+ / 0-)
                        P.P.S. Getting a ticket won't generate 15 letters from lawyers but getting arrested will.
                        In North Carolina, YES it WILL. Yes, it does.
                        1. The breakup conversation you had with your girlfriend where you cried like a baby.
                        The NSA isn't tapping your phone line without a warrant.
                        And the problem is that the NSA has ALL of that now, whether you like it or not. No warrant needed, or so they tell us, because some secret law was made by a secret judge who said it okay.
                        No, not all and none of it can be accessed without a warrant. Before PRISM I had already knew that if I'm suspected of committing a crime, even local law enforcement could access ALL that information anyway. All they need is a warrant. I don't see a big change here.

                        Please proceed, Governor.

                        by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 11:09:35 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  you understand that (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Joieau

                          many of our complaints are about the "warrantless" nature of much of this info gathering, right?

                          I wish I could share your belief in an upright government who ever and only goes after "bad guys" as the majority would define them. But that's not true, at all.

                          •  A waste of time arguing with that one (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Joieau

                            He's very ill-informed on a lot of different counts and totally unafraid of spreading his ignorance around as gospel.

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