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View Diary: PRISM: What It's Really All About (196 comments)

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  •  Big Data (3+ / 0-)
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    Eric Nelson, Joieau, Lisa

    Unless you are willing to live without a smart phone, Google, Amazon, an ATM card, cable T.V., and a whole lot of other stuff, your data is going to be collected.

    The government is not collecting the data, private companies are. And you are given them that data willingly. The government is just asking them to tell them what you willingly handed over.

    I am not sure people appreciate this. The problem is much bigger than the NSA. The NSA is not the one collecting the data. Sprint is. And Comcast. And your grocery store. And Daily Kos. (Tell me powers that be at Daily Kos, if the Justice Department handed you a court order, would you hand over information?)

    There is an amazing amount of data that is being collected from you. Every cell tower you pass, every click of your T.V. remote, every purchase you make with your ATM is being track.

    What we are facing is HUGE. What do we want to be as a society? The Big Data is already out there, and it means big money to the people who hold it and can analysis it. It is the economy of the 21st century.

    Are you willing to give up your ATM card and your smart phone? Are you willing to give up your e-ticket you printed before boarding a plane? Are you alright with your medical history being available to the ER you visit while on vacation? "Oh sorry, we did not know you were allergic to that drug. Oops."

    We seem to be willing for some of our data to be shared with third parties. What we as a society have to decide is how that data is used. it is not as easy a question as you think.

    This Big Data stuff is a whole new paradigm and we need to think long and hard about how we are going to go forward.

    “We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.” - Winston Chuchill

    by se portland on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 06:31:43 PM PDT

    •  I don't have (6+ / 0-)

      a smart phone, an ATM card, cable TV, or a whole lot of other stuff. Hell, we gave up TV back in 1976, before there ever was cable.

      I can't drive, I can't fly, I can't leave the country. I can't have a bank account, I can't get a state ID, can't work outside the home, and as of next election I won't even be able to vote. Because the PATRIOT Act of 2006 has made me officially "nonexistent." THAT pisses me right off too.

      Because I was born abroad of American parents [FS-240] when Dad was in the Navy (just like John McCain), and when I got enrolled in school I answered only to my 'pet' name, given to me by my Filipino amah. All the names are mine, but the Act no longer recognizes school records as ID, though they did back in 1966 when I got my SS card. They will take a baptismal certificate or family Bible, though. Too bad I was never baptised and my family had no big derned Bible.

      It's cost me more than a thousand dollars so far, and I still have no name ("do not exist," which are the exact words they have used, repeatedly). Turned 62 last month, filed for my SS because it doesn't look like I'm going to be working any time soon. They denied my filing, because I "do not exist" and now must file suit to prove I do. God knows they've never refused my annual taxes, no matter what name is attached - it's the NUMBER that counts. I've lots of proof that all my names belong to me. The law just no longer allows me to be who I am.

      THAT is a fucking pain in the ass, let me tell you. I am now considering getting the ACLU involved, and challenging the entirety of the PATRIOT Act. I sure as hell have standing...

      You go ahead and do your thinking on your own time, decide for yourself which of your human and citizenship rights you're willing to surrender without a fight just for expedience. You have no right to surrender mine, and I'm right here to fight for them in spite of people who won't fight.

      •  How do we go forward into the 21st century? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, LilithGardener

        Phones where first tapped in 1890 and it was not until 1928 that the Supreme Court out law it. Olmstead v. United States

        Technology is changing. I said that we have to think long and hard about what we want to be as a society.

        “We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.” - Winston Chuchill

        by se portland on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:37:15 PM PDT

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      •  the thing about daa collection is not that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, YucatanMan

        they collect the data, Its what they do with it after and they can change your history and they can make it so that you do not exist. It's those last two things that scare me. They can go into that data and just change who you are, where you've been, who you know and then how do you prove other wise?

      •  I have a friend who has a problem very similar to (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Joieau, Bluehawk, buddabelly, Eric Nelson

        yours so I know just how absolutely aggravating it can be.  And I know it is real.   Without identifying too closely who this is, here are the general issues:

        My friend's family is Latino.  He's originally from "the valley."  That's the area along the Rio Grande on the US side where there are many "colonias" way down at the bottom of the point of Texas. These areas are desperately poor and frequently without running water or other modern niceties even today.  He was born at home, his mother aided by a mid-wife.  The mid-wife wrote out a birth certificate which was registered about a week later by his family at the county court house.  That's how things were done then.

        He has a Social Security number.  Was born in the USA.  Lived in the USA all his life. Went to college, did very well and became a professional where he has a great reputation.

        He cannot leave the USA.  Why not?  The USA refuses to issue him a passport.  They say the county records from that era, consisting of recorded midwife births, are not acceptable to the US government.  Texas says his birth certificate is valid, but not the US government.

        He's in limbo.  The government won't budge.  The lawyers say they don't know what more can be done. It is utterly appalling.

        Sounds like your situation is worse, but a couple decades down the road, I worry about him collecting Social Security too. It's a hell of a thing to be treated as persona non grata by your own government.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 09:14:41 PM PDT

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        •  It's just so damned insulting. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          YucatanMan, LilithGardener

          I was BORN Navy. My father was nothing if he wasn't the greatest patiot I ever knew. During Vietnam my hub joined the Navy, because his draft number 'won' the Christmas lottery and it was either go to 'Nam and be cannon fodder (right out of college) or join another service and take what they had to offer. We went nuclear, because we're patriots and chose not to go to Canada. Which was offering political asylum back then. Available. But then we never would have come back, and weren't willing to sacrifice our families.

          They're mostly dead now. Back then it was a deal. I don't have too much trouble identifying with people like your friend because I'm a "state-less non-person" too. Total bullshit, it's all right there in black and white.

          But everybody in the bureaucracy I've tried to work with locally, on the state level and federal level are all terrified of the PATRIOT Act. A misnomer if ever there was one. I am not afraid, I'm pissed off. Paid my citizenship dues and absolutely don't deserve this kind of shit.

          Affects 'them' not the least. Well, fine. I'll fight it out in open court if they really want to go there. Fuck 'em...

          •  I hear you. My birthday came up #3 in the lottery (1+ / 0-)
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            the same year that Nixon stopped calling up for the draft.

            I was just about to enlist in the Navy to avoid the Army, with that #3 looming over me. My uncle - my dad's youngest brother - had served two tours, grievously wounded both times, malaria, the whole bit.  My other uncle served in the Air Force, shipping back full caskets, from an airbase in Nam.

            And then Nixon stopped calling up for the draft.  Of course, if he hadn't interrupted the Paris Peace talks in 1968, the war might not have gone on another 5 years and tens of thousands of Americans would not have died.  And the Laotians, Cambodians, and Vietnamese killed from his illegal bombing wouldn't have died either.  I was glad Nixon finally ended the war, but he was no hero to me for doing so.

            His pardon set the precedent for "not looking back" and that infects the body politic to this day.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:28:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      se portland

      I keep getting emails for penis enlargement pills from private "companies" (in quotes because scam spammers don't deserve to be called companies).

      So if even a private money making enterprise can find out via the web that I have a small penis and email me spam, is anyone really surprised the NSA can access your emails and such if you get investigated?

      Please proceed, Governor.

      by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:33:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sounds to me like you opted in: (0+ / 0-)
        I keep getting emails for penis enlargement pills...
        You're the one who is all over this blog obsessively wagging your wee-wee at serious Americans trying to have an intelligent discussion.

        Take the pills, big boy.

        You need them.

        Denial is a drug.

        by Pluto on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:04:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're right, Pluto. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          se portland

          I should follow your fine example of elevating the discourse.

          Apparently nuance is lost upon you. While I made my point in the form of a joke about penis pills, the point still stands that a lot of your personal information like your email address, cell phone number, and even your internet activity is routinely bought and sold by private companies.

          I was agreeing with the last poster.

          But do, continue with your substantive discussion.

          Please proceed, Governor.

          by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:14:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That is not what he is saying, and I hope (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          USArmyParatrooper, Joieau, buddabelly

          you know that. That comment seem a bit too personal. Are you implying that USArmyParatrooper is not a serious American? That is pretty close Pluto...

          On the front page of Daily Kos right now is an ad for Globster. I have been planning a vacation. I did not 'opt in' to anything. I did internet searches. You would almost think that ads that Daily Kos allows on the Front Page are tracking by web habits. :0

          “We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.” - Winston Chuchill

          by se portland on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 08:39:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, they are. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pluto, buddabelly

            I was gifted with a subscription a couple of years ago, don't get ads. That's really great, because I pay no attention to ads even if I can see 'em. I've got no money to spend on things I don't need, so I don't.

            That is sort of weird I know, but I've been doing intertoobs for a long time. If the NSA's SooperSnoop thing was really all that good, they'd already know I'm immune from advertising. Their SooperSnooper thing is ill-conceived and not even worth what they're paying their corporate "partners."

            It's not like I'm afraid this kind of crap will be effective for what they've designed it to be. I have no expectation of that much competence. I know these folks, have met them before. It's quite a lot like Keystone Kops.

            Unfortunately, they take themselves seriously. Go figure.

            •  I've a subscription and don't see ads, the tracker (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              scripts run merrily along least according to a couple of blockers I use....

              It makes my internet less than seamless, I often have to decide if I want to allow something or not but I do not get spam, I don't get targeted ads and if they are they are way off target.  Security is a pain and the more secure you want to be the worse of a pita it is.

              Hell using encription automatically gets your emails flagged and saved in the "special" area.  Just using encription, something everyone should do routinely if we do want privacy in our emails and such....

              And they would still get their metadata that they claim is all they want and need as that goes in cleartext, it has to to function.   Only the contents are encrypted so why should that "flag" you without the "metadata" showing a pattern that would allow a Judge to in good faith issue a warrant.....

              Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
              I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
              Emiliano Zapata

              by buddabelly on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 10:22:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  You make a good point (4+ / 0-)
      We seem to be willing for some of our data to be shared with third parties. What we as a society have to decide is how that data is used. it is not as easy a question as you think.
      But as a matter of fact, plenty of people are thinking about this. I will quote an excellent comment by bruh1:
      The laws in the US are weak because they only cover certain industries (eg health care or financial data). This differs from Europe where the laws cover all private data. The European laws are actually considered the bench mark for how one should do privacy law if one wants to truly control what private sector companies are doing. In fact, all the issues you are mentioning, the Europeans were actively and continue to be actively trying to reform their regulations to address them.

      . . . .

      Here's the difference with these laws: where they apply (and through the FTC they can be broader in scope than just specific industries), they will limit the use of data collected, require disclosure about uses, give you certain rights about the data, and in some state cases allow for a private right of action

      compare this to NSA and PRISM where not only do we not know whats being collected, we don't how its being used and we lack any rights related to it to say no.

      The US's laws in this area could certainly be made a lot better. That doesn't make what the NSA is doing harmless, or even "not as bad" as what private companies are doing. As bruh1 goes on to say:
      What's at stake is that PRISM opens the door for more private sector sheenigans because the government sees itself as patners with the private sector, and vice versa.
      This is all one issue.

      "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

      by TealTerror on Sun Jul 07, 2013 at 07:43:34 PM PDT

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    •  property rights should be extended 2 personal data (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      which could be the best "bipartisan" solution to Big Data I've seen.

      Obama: self-described Republican; backed up by right-wing policies

      by The Dead Man on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 04:17:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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