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View Diary: Fooling Americans Abuout FISA (232 comments)

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  •  Here is the one flaw in your argument, JR: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland, edrie, congenitalefty
    Congress created the FISA Court in 1978, ironically, to reign in gross domestic spying abuses. I say "ironically" because after 9/11, the FISA Court instead created an entire body of law that gives the NSA the power to collect all digital data of Americans.
    That digital data does not be long to said "Americans." It belongs to private corporations. Does a corporation have 4th Amendment rights?

    If anybody should be putting up a defense for unreasonable searches of their data, is the corporations to whom it belongs in the first place. But they are not. They are willingly cooperating.

    •  here's a better idea (6+ / 0-)

      how about a serious conversation on digital rights for that data?

      In the time that I have been given,
      I am what I am

      by duhban on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:48:03 AM PDT

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    •  Normally, I wouldn't be incensed by a (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      brooklynbadboy, edrie, Don midwest

      "this is a violation of my imaginary constitution".  But the diarists and others roll out pretty big accusations that sure seem to flounder on that first step: their persons and papers were never searched. Verizon's were. And we gave Verizon all the info, knowingly.

      "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

      by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:07:40 AM PDT

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    •  Do you have law to back you up on this? (6+ / 0-)

      It's our data. We may have given it to corporations for limited purposes (billing, etc.), but that doesn't necessarily mean we gave up our rights to it. And if it does, those laws need to be changed.

      That said, I don't see how this functions as a defense of the NSA programs at all.

      "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

      by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:01:47 AM PDT

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      •  ever actually read the TOS you agree to when you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TealTerror

        sign up?

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:30:10 AM PDT

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        •  I'd be surprised if 1% of people (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Klusterpuck, congenitalefty

          read the TOS instead of just scrolling down and clicking "I agree." So, no.

          Can you show me an example of a TOS that says "All your phone metadata belongs to us"? (Honest question--not rhetorical.)

          "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

          by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:35:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Go get your cellphone TOS agreement. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TealTerror

            Here's the key section of mine from AT&T:

            The software, interfaces, documentation, data, and content provided for your Equipment as may be updated, downloaded, or replaced by feature enhancements, software updates, system restore software or data generated or provided subsequently by AT&T (hereinafter “Software”) is licensed, not sold, to you by AT&T and/or its licensors/suppliers for use only on your Equipment. Your use of the Software shall comply with its intended purposes as determined by us, all applicable laws, and AT&T’s Acceptable Use Policy at att.com.

            You are not permitted to use the Software in any manner not authorized by this License. You may not (and you agree not to enable others to) copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, reproduce, attempt to derive the source code of, decrypt, modify, defeat protective mechanisms, combine with other software, or create derivative works of the Software or any portion thereof. You may not rent, lease, lend, sell, redistribute, transfer or sublicense the Software or any portion thereof. You agree the Software contains proprietary content and information owned by AT&T and/or its licensors/suppliers.

            AT&T and its licensors/suppliers reserve the right to change, suspend, terminate, remove, impose limits on the use or access to, or disable access to, the Software at any time without notice and will have no liability for doing so. You acknowledge AT&T’s Software licensors/suppliers are intended third party beneficiaries of this license, including the indemnification, limitation of liability, disclaimer of warranty provisions found in this Agreement.
            blockquote>

            And more:

            You authorize AT&T or a third party working on AT&T's behalf to listen to, and transcribe all or part of a voicemail message and to convert such voicemail message into text/email, and to use voicemail messages and transcriptions to enhance, train and improve AT&T's speech recognition and transcription services, software and equipment.
            And the kicker:

            Technical & Usage Information related to the services we provide to you, including information about your use of our network, services, products or websites. Examples of the Technical & Usage Information we collect include:

            Equipment Information that identifies the equipment you use on our network, such as equipment type, IDs, serial numbers, settings, configuration, and software.


            Performance Information about the operation of the equipment, services and applications you use on our network, such as IP addresses, URLs, data transmission rates and latencies, location information, security characteristics, and information about the amount of bandwidth and other network resources you use in connection with uploading, downloading or streaming data to and from the Internet.


            AT&T Website Usage Information about your use of AT&T websites, including the pages you visit, the length of time you spend, the links or advertisements you follow and the search terms you enter on our sites, and the websites you visit immediately before and immediately after visiting one of our sites. We also may collect similar information about your use of AT&T applications on wireless devices.


            Viewing Information about the programs you watch and record, the games you play and similar choices you and those in your household make when using our AT&T U-verse TV, U-verse Online, U-verse Mobile and similar AT&T services and products.

            2.
            How do we collect information?

            We collect information in three primary ways:

            You Give Us Information: We collect information from you when you purchase a service from us or when you interact with us about a product or service we offer or provide. For example, you provide us with Contact Information, and Billing Information (such as credit information and Social Security number) when you order a service or establish an account with us.


            We Collect Information Automatically: We automatically collect certain types of information when you visit our websites or use our products and services. For example, we automatically collect various types of Technical & Usage Information when you use our video programming, wireless, Wi-Fi or High Speed Internet products and services.


            We Collect Information from Other Sources: We may obtain information about you from outside sources. For example, we may request credit information about you from credit agencies for the purpose of initiating service to you, obtain commercially available demographic and marketing information about you from third parties, or purchase e-mail lists from third parties for advertising and marketing purposes.

            The software on my phone, and any data it collects, are the property of AT&T...spelled out clearly. And they say very clearly they will share this information freely. And they can change the terms of this agreement at any time without my consent. And I cannot sue them for any reason...I must go to mandatory AT&T sponsored arbitration.

            That sound like privacy rights to you?

            •  Nope, it doesn't sound like privacy rights (3+ / 0-)

              Thanks for the info. It's clear that the current policies revolving around phone and internet data are close to the opposite of what they should be.

              "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

              by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:59:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  aren you saying the content is theirs? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              congenitalefty

              cause that would seem to matter..or are we still on the metadata and what does that really mean thing?

              I think we are way past the point of worrying about the metadata, that could be an issue after we protect the content.

              And efforts to say the metadata is just as revealing are interesting but I still want the content to be mine, and protected from snooping and storage by the government and any subcontractors.

                I trusted Verizon/yahoo.etc with it...bad enough, I don't like their back door access to it, without transparent and obvious oversight, something that has been sloughed off to the secret government.
               So the metadata is theirs to sell and distribute, ugh, and their software is theirs, but content?

              This machine kills Fascists.

              by KenBee on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 01:41:32 PM PDT

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            •  Never agreed to any of those. (0+ / 0-)

              When you have no other option, they're unconscionable, and therefore unenforceable, contracts of adhesion.  

              But in fact, you do not agree to any such contract when you get either a prepaid cell or a landline.

        •  Nobody has, even after the fact: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          congenitalefty

          I keep asking if there's a clause forbidding Verizon from handing over the metadata even without a subpoena, or somehow supporting the idea it's "our data".  

          I don't even know where my Verizon TOS can be found.

          "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

          by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:47:47 AM PDT

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          •  I would hope that clause would be (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Klusterpuck, congenitalefty

            the 4th Amendment. But that would be an extremely naive hope, given what we currently know.

            "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

            by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:49:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, let's read it. (0+ / 0-)
              The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
              The customers weren't subjected to a search of their persons, houses, papers or effects.  Only Verizon was.

              "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

              by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:55:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  A search of Verizon's papers/effects (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Klusterpuck

                just is a search of the customers' persons, papers, and effects. Or so I would argue if I were in front of the Supreme Court.

                (Well, either that, or use the "corporations are people" dictum for good for once...)

                "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:06:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hard pressed. (0+ / 0-)

                  There's no reason to think that it's YOUR INFO when it's being collected by another party.  It's like mailing a letter to a lover.  Ask for them back or they do as they please.

                  "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                  by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:10:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That sounds like a lawyer's argument to me (3+ / 0-)

                    [Disclaimer: Some of my best friends are (studying to be) lawyers.]

                    If it's data about my communications, it's my data. Maybe that's not the case under our current laws, but that just means our current laws should be changed.

                    "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                    by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:17:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have a right to it. (0+ / 0-)

        Read your Terms of Service agreements. Its in there. This data doesn't belong to you...you agree to this. It says they can use it for their own marketing purposes....you agree to this. And they say they will give it to the government if the government asks for it...you agree to that too.

        Now, where in all that did you establish your right to this data?

        •  If that's true, I'll concede this point (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DeadHead, congenitalefty, deep info

          That just means, as I said, the laws on this matter need to be changed. The data should belong to us; it shouldn't be legal for a corporation to take over ownership rights on the basis of a TOS nobody reads.

          Again, though, this is in no way an exoneration of the NSA. Quite the opposite--the NSA programs are only making the situation worse. I don't think I can explain it better than bruh1 did here:

          What's at stake is that PRISM opens the door for more private sector sheenigans because the government sees itself as patners with the private sector, and vice versa.
          Americans need much stronger privacy rights, both against corporations and against government.

          "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

          by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:47:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's exactly right. This data SHOULD belong (6+ / 0-)

            to us, which is why we need a new law about this sort of thing. That's what I've been screaming for a month now.

            •  But the NSA programs only make that harder. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CroneWit, congenitalefty, deep info

              They're part and parcel of the ideology that the data doesn't belong to us, it belongs to someone else--whether that be a corporation or the government. They're bringing the public and private sectors even closer together when we should be trying to force them apart.

              "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

              by TealTerror on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:09:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The remedy for that is property rights. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TealTerror, CroneWit, deep info

                That's why I say that the privacy issue is kind of...whatever. People who give Facebook their entire life history have no basis on which to claim privacy. The more important matter is who owns the data. Because if its property, then the government far more limited in its abilities to search your physical property. And they'll have to pay you to keep it. That should put a stop to this PDQ.

                In otherwords, my data shouldn't belong to AT&T and they lease it to me. It should be the other way round.

            •  snowden's talkign about the same thing essentially (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Klusterpuck, CroneWit, deep info

              from today's released interview:

              Companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft -- they all get together with the NSA and provide the NSA direct access to the back ends of all the systems you use to communicate, to store data, to put things in the cloud, and even just to send birthday wishes and keep a record of your life.  And they give NSA direct access that they don't need to oversee so they can't be held liable for it. I think that's a dangerous capability for anybody to have but particularly an organization that's demonstrated time and time again that they'll work to shield themselves from oversight.

              Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

              by greenbastard on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:31:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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