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View Diary: A river of blood in Chicago ... oh, um, BREAKING: NSA something, something (60 comments)

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  •  Well, the NSA's data collection is not... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DefendOurConstitution

    ...restricted to the whereabouts of deadly weapons.

    If it were, this would be much less controversial.

    That's actually information that the public (and not just some secret agency) has a right to know.

    But my wife's calls to her mother are another matter.

    They don't hurt anybody.

    Stop the NRA and the NSA
    Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

    by dream weaver on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:00:29 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  They aren't another matter, if you really (3+ / 0-)

      believe that the USG knowing that your wife calls her mother is a slippery slope to tyranny.  It's the exact same belief that the gun rights people have about guns.   I have no idea how you can make a distinction, once you have the premise that the government is likely to use any information it has in a bad way.

      So the "they don't hurt anybody" distinction isn't useful to people who engage in the type of rhetoric.

      "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

      by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:35:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Guns are deadly weapons. First and foremost. (0+ / 0-)

        And they most certainly do hurt people, as was pointed out in the diary.

        Stop the NRA and the NSA
        Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

        by dream weaver on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:39:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So? (2+ / 0-)

          That's hardly the point.  The point is that having the information allows the oppressive USG to turn into a tyranny.  It's the same point for guns as it is for metadata.

          "I'm going to allow the USG to turn into a tyranny because guns are dangerous" is a non sequitur.

          "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

          by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:44:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I support the public's right to know the... (0+ / 0-)

            ...whereabouts of deadly weapons, so that we can make informed decisions about how close we want to be to them.

            Hell, I'd mandate chips in new guns and an app that people could put on their smart phones to detect guns in their vicinity, if it were/is feasible.

            I don't see how me knowing wher the guns are in my immediate vicinity is tyranny.

            I just don't.

            Stop the NRA and the NSA
            Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

            by dream weaver on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:56:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's not tyranny. It LEADS to tyranny. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Patate

              You tell me how it's any nuttier than "the government having metadata leads to tyranny".  

              Both have the same premise of a government destined to abuse any information it has to the detriment of citizens; the precise mechanism is unimportant, since nobody can prove the negative, particularly to people who are convinced that government is inherently tending to tyranny and who like scaring the bejesus out of themselves.

              The only way a distinction can be made is when someone admits it's all horseshit.

              "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

              by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:01:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have no need to know when you call your mother. (0+ / 0-)

                I do have a need to know if you are carrying a gun.

                I'm surprised that you don't see a difference.

                Stop the NRA and the NSA
                Repeal the Patriot Act and the 2nd Amendment

                by dream weaver on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:04:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Who are you arguing with? Not me. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Patate

                  It's hardly my fault that the rhetoric of the NSA opponents mirrors that of the NRA supporters, and is based in the same paranoia.

                  It's not my fault that both decided to eschew "who does it hurt for someone to know this" for some crap about how it leads to a tyrannical future.

                  And you have no need for a gun, or to know if I call my mother, but that's your thing.  Some people don't trust me so much.  Go talk to them about how I'm a great guy because you've posted to me on the internet.

                  This isn't theory.  Gun control diaries are as good as gone.

                  "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                  by Inland on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 12:09:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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