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  •  It's working well for the NRA anf the manu- (11+ / 0-)

    facturers that they represent.  Sales are just fantastic!  The people and the states?  Not so much.

    •  The NRA makes far more from membership dues (0+ / 0-)

      than from corporate donations.
      Membership dues: $100,500,000 (2010)
      Corporate Donations: $14,800,000 (2005-2010)
      That is over forty times more annually from membership dues alone than from corporate donations.
      Link: Bloomberg

      Add into the fact that the NRA has gained a million new members since the proposal of the AWB & your statement of an "NRA/manufacturer conspiracy" is exposed as absurd.

      The NRA is doing as their members want.
      Do you really find it so unbelievable that people don't think that they should lose their liberties for the crimes of murderers?
      Do you really think that "Repealing or Amending the Second Amendment" is something they would be for if not for 'gun manufacturers'?

      On the other hand, perhaps your 'something, something, cult.....something, something, altar....something something NRA' thesis is TOTALLY right on.

      We will find out.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 06:12:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The sad thing is that you probably actually (12+ / 0-)

        believe that what you have written there constitutes some sort of intelligent argumentation.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 06:56:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have a link proving it. (0+ / 0-)

          Provided by Bloomberg, no less.

          This 'NRA is controlled by gun manufacturers' meme doesn't even reach the credibility of a conspiracy theory......at least conspiracy theories make bullshit accusations that can't be so easily disproven.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:57:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have nothing proving anything. (6+ / 0-)

            That you think you do simply proves the truth of my original comment.

            Here's a nickel. Buy a class in logical reasoning.

            Or better still, buy a copy of Historian's Fallacies, by David Hackett Fischer, and spend the upcoming weekend reading it. It may be enlightening, if you are sufficiently susceptible to education.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 08:18:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Logical reasoning" (0+ / 0-)

              Hence, the NRA IS CONTROLLED BY GUN MANUFACTURERS & ALL THEIR MEMBERS ARE JUST PUPPETS.....and they did it while contributing 1/40th the amount the members did.
              Hence, logical.

              Helluva class you got there.
              Color me impressed.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 08:22:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You keep "making" the same point over and over. (5+ / 0-)

                It was fallacious the first time, and it will remain fallaciious, regardless of how many times you state it.

                Truly sad.

                To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                by UntimelyRippd on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 08:24:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  That's what they contributed directly (3+ / 0-)

                To the NRA. How much have they put into ads and other perks that are not directly attributed to what they put into the NRA?

                Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                by splashy on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:17:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  From the link. (0+ / 0-)

                  "Combined, sources such as fundraising, sales, advertising and royalties produced about $115 million in 2010"

                  Farther down, "The NRA received $71.1 million in donations"
                  That would be $71.1 million from fundraising. And as the article makes clear, those are individual donations--not corporate.
                  Thus, assuming royalties & sales are $0, $43.9 million.
                  That gives a grand total of $58,700,000 (including 6 years of corporate donations & a certainly bloated advertising total) from corporations & $171,600,000 from their membership & individual donations.

                  The entire article (including it's very title "NRA Raises $200 Million as Gun Lobby Toasters Burn Logo on Bread"), focuses on how most of the NRA's money is raised by small-time donations.

                  The NRA has a lot of members. Why is it so unbelievable that 5,000,000 people aren't simply dupes for gun manufacturers and actually want the NRA to lobby for gun rights?

                  It's an absurd meme based in zero fact & is contradicted by the NRA's funding, large membership & 25% growth in the aftermath of the gun control debate.
                  This meme exists simply to dehumanize those opposed to the President's gun control proposals.

                  Real people do disagree with the gun control proposals put forth.  Why is this so shocking?

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:59:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How do you account for fact that polling (6+ / 0-)

                    has the overwhelming majority of NRA members supporting background checks?

                    The fact the the NRA is able to dupe it's members into giving it money and dupe  some  citizens into joining by lying in it's ads and scaremongering should not be a surprise.

                    Right man, right job and right time

                    by Ianb007 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:05:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  They support a theoretical background check. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      happymisanthropy

                      Not the background check that the President proposed alongside a gun ban.

                      Nearly a quarter of Democrats said that they were "happy or relieved" by the defeat of the gun control bills.

                      In fact, more people want gun control lessened or kept as is(50%), than support stricter gun control (47%).

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:36:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are being very selective with these stats. (6+ / 0-)

                        In both articles you link. More people want gun control than do not.

                        In the first one you linked 47% were disappointed or angry that the senate gun bill didn't past as opposed to 39% who were pleased or very happy.

                        In the second 47% want stricter gun control as opposed to 11% less. That is quite startling.  You can't include the one who want it to remain the same because a sizable portion of them are clueless and think that universal background checks already exist.

                        http://theweek.com/...

                        What the president proposed is irrelevant.  the senate bill did not have any gun bans associated with it.  You have not addressed why the NRA is opposed to something that the overwhelming number of it's members support.  Furthermore screw the members, the vast majority of the public supports the back ground checks.

                        http://www.cbsnews.com/...

                        Right man, right job and right time

                        by Ianb007 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:07:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  39% want gun control kept as is & 11% want less. (0+ / 0-)

                          That is 50% that do not want more gun control vs only 47% that do.

                          It would seem that innocent Americans don't believe that they should give up their liberties for your percieved security, because of the crimes of a murderer.

                          There is a reason why it has been Gun Control supporters that have been managing to lose elections in an off year.

                          Not only is Colorado having their 1st....and 2nd recalls in its 137 year history, but in a special election a damn good candidate that had a 4-1 spending advantage & a 9 point lead 2 weeks prior to the election managed to lose 18 points and the election to a candidate that didn't even have the support of his own party.

                          Gun control is a loser....and it is being proven. Again.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:02:49 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok I will ask 1 last time (0+ / 0-)

                            Why does the NRA not support something that their members overwhelmingly support.

                            You can bob and weave all you want but I think the polls are clear. A majority of people support at least having a comprehensive background check.  The fact that an immoral NRA can scare certain low info voters into believing that the govt is going to take their guns away can't change what almost every poll says.

                            Right man, right job and right time

                            by Ianb007 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:12:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ask them. Ask one of their 5 million members. (0+ / 0-)

                            Ask one of the one million members they added in a matter of months.

                            I don't have to bob and weave.
                            I am taking the reality of the situation face on.
                            Your polls mean dick.....just ask Colbert-Busch.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:44:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  5 Million members according the NRA is (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener

                            1.6 % of the entire  US population.  Of that 5 million 80%  support background checks.

                            Oh so now polls don't mean dick  after you been posting them all through this diary...lol.

                            Colbert Busch- Sanford is not the only race that matters  in America.  Why don't you ask Gabriel Gomez.  Better yet ask Kelly Ayote why she has seen a  15 point drop in her approval rate since voting against the background check bill.

                            Oh and BTW Manchin who co sponsored the senate background check bill still enjoys a 63% approval rating after the bill got defeated.  67% of voters in West Virginia support his attempt to expand background checks.  This is West fucking Virginia not California.  So your doom and gloom argument is not supported in every area of the country.  Nice try though.

                            Right man, right job and right time

                            by Ianb007 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:19:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No. YOUR polls mean dick. (0+ / 0-)

                            Primarily because both reality & results are contrary to them.

                            "Kelly Ayote"
                            You mean the sitting Senator? The one who isn't up for election until 2016?
                            Some 'big winner' you got there.

                            Unfortunately for gun controllers they have already managed to lose elections & cause recalls. Their well established reputation of accomplishing nothing but losing elections for Democrats is already happening.

                            Don't worry...gun controllers can own the results of 2014.
                            What do you have to worry about? You're off to such a smashing start.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 05:21:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  How many members are allowed to vote? (2+ / 0-)

                Who's on the board? Who vets nominations?

                Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

                by Dogs are fuzzy on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:02:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Who's on the board? (0+ / 0-)

                  Dipshits & embarrassments, mostly.

                  But that is irrelevant: Their members do support what they are doing & their members are what provides the financial & grassroots political muscle of the NRA.

                  The 'NRA is controlled by the gun manufacturers & don't care what their members think' meme isn't supported by anything substantial.
                  Indeed, everything from their membership, to their growth, to their finances contradicts it.
                  It is asinine.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:09:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Would that be the same link (7+ / 0-)

            That points out that while the NRA started as grassroots, it's now an industry organization, that its donations from industry increased at twice the rate as its donations from members in the period 2004-2010, and that the NRA talks out of both sides of its mouth when it comes to its relationship to gun manufacturers?

            That the link you mean?

            •  The link that shows that (0+ / 0-)

              corporate donations for a six year span was $14,800,000, while membership dues for one year alone totaled $100,500,000?

              The one that the very title "NRA Raises $200 Million as Gun Lobby Toasters Burn Logo on Bread" shows that small-time donations is the NRA's primary funding?

              Yeah........that's the one.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:06:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  People Like You Encourage People Like Me (4+ / 0-)

            to add sections to rental leases making guns in my apartments a no no.  My current tenants are ecstatic about the change.  People like you make them very nervous about their safety.

            Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

            by tikkun on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:25:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You're a walking NRA billboard, Frank. (10+ / 0-)

        Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

        by Bob Johnson on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:35:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bloomberg, actually. (0+ / 0-)

          They are the ones that reported it.

          Hence, my link.

          My God.....this means that the NRA, gun manufacturers & Bloomberg are all in cahoots!!!!
          How deep does this nefarious plot go?

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:58:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Their Lucrative Membership Opposes Their Pro (5+ / 0-)

        manufacturer stance on a number of gun issues.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 07:52:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Try to tell the truth, Frank (10+ / 0-)
        Combined, sources such as fundraising, sales, advertising and royalties produced about $115 million in 2010, just over half the NRA’s $227.8 million in income, according to the group’s tax return. Most of the rest, about $100.5 million, came from membership dues. Other sources included program fees, sales of assets, investment income and subscriptions.
        Your post implies that the bulk of NRA's income comes from membership dues. The truth is different, as the above quote found on your link suggests.

        As far as I can determine, the income from "fundraising" could be just about anything, including money that ultimately comes from the arms industry. This website doesn't even come close to confirming the stuff you're peddling tonight.

        ... but He loves you! -- George Carlin -- (-7.25, -6.21)

        by Tim DeLaney on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 08:48:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Read the very title of the link. (0+ / 0-)

          "NRA Raises $200 Million as Gun Lobby Toasters Burn Logo on Bread"
          Are you honestly suggesting that 'corporate donors' are buying toasters?

          As your quote says "sources such as fundraising, sales, advertising and royalties produced about $115 million in 2010"

          In the link I provided you, Bloomberg reports "The NRA received $71.1 million in donations last year".
          That covers fundraising.

          You should really read an article before attempting to accuse another of dishonesty.......particularly when your 'point' is in an article that specifically focuses on small time donations.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:00:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. N/t (3+ / 0-)

            ... but He loves you! -- George Carlin -- (-7.25, -6.21)

            by Tim DeLaney on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:06:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is also funding information (0+ / 0-)

              provided by Bloomberg, no less....

              and false memes (gun manufacturers are the primary engine of the NRA) that don't stand up to reality.

              You've learned the facts--why deny them?

              You can still disagree with the NRA & support the gun control measures put forth by President Obama without such a silly meme.....why continue with it?

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:11:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Some advice, Frank -- stop digging n/t (6+ / 0-)

                ... but He loves you! -- George Carlin -- (-7.25, -6.21)

                by Tim DeLaney on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:17:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Stop digging what? (0+ / 0-)

                  I provided a Bloomberg link that flies in the face of this 'NRA is a puppet of gun manufacturers' meme.

                  For fuck's sake, they have five million members & grew 25% in a matter of months.
                  Why is it so shocking that an organization with that many members, that many new members & receives the majority of their funds from their members are doing what their members want them to do?

                  That meme has been an illogical, unproven...and quite frankly, a goofy theory from the get-go.

                  How is it so shocking that an organization that specifically exists to promote gun rights aren't supporting the gun control plans of a president that specifically proposed a gun ban?

                  Is it really that bewildering that people don't share your viewpoint on this issue?

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:29:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Another lie: (5+ / 0-)
                    ... a president that specifically proposed a gun ban?
                    When will the lies stop, Frank?

                    ... but He loves you! -- George Carlin -- (-7.25, -6.21)

                    by Tim DeLaney on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 09:39:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Just because the NRA raises a considerable (4+ / 0-)

                    amount from membership dues does not mean they are not controlled by gun manufacturers.

                    When national polling puts the overwhelming majority of it's own members supporting background checks and the NRA leadership being adamantly against it that alone should raise enough questions in any rational persons mind.  

                    There are also many in depth reporting by a few investigative journalists that seem to suggest that this organization is a gun manufacturer shill outfit.  

                    Right man, right job and right time

                    by Ianb007 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:13:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That polling said nothing about the specific (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      happymisanthropy

                      bills presented.

                      Nearly a quarter of Democrats said that they were "happy or relieved" at the defeat of the gun control bills.

                      There is nothing to support this 'NRA is controlled by the gun manufacturers' meme.
                      Not finances, not their membership, not their growth....not polls. Nothing.

                      It doesn't even raise to the level of conspiracy theory.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:29:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  LOL Dems overwhelmingly are unhappy (5+ / 0-)

                        that the gun bill didn't pass by a 3 to 1 margin.  Why would you even bring up such a silly point?  Simply address the point I'm making.

                        Universal background check is what they support.  Which is  what the NRA does not support.  I never mentioned any bills because the NRA does not support any type of background check, it has nothing to do with a particular bill.  Why does the NRA not support something it's members support.

                        The NRA may not be controlled by gun manufacturers but neither is it simply a grass roots organization.  It is a right wing republican extremist orginasation and Wayne Lapierre is simply a mouthpiecee to extremist right ring ideology that is  the NRA.

                        Right man, right job and right time

                        by Ianb007 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:29:09 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  "Why would you bring up such a silly point?" (0+ / 0-)

                          Unless you are planning on those Democrats that support gun control to vote twice, alienating a quarter of your base isn't good politics.....as John Morse, Angela Giron and Elizabeth Colbert-Busch found out.
                          Gun Control loses voters.
                          What possible demographic does gun control gain?
                          It is a net electorial loser.

                          "Why does the NRA not support something it's members support."
                          Seeing as how the NRA has increased its membership by 25% in a matter of months & have gained a million new members since the President's gun control proposals, it would seem that their members are fine with the way the NRA is handling things.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:12:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  An overwhelming number of democrats support (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener

                            background checks. As a matter of fact most republican voters support background checks.  Whether they support other new gun laws in not something I have brought up or even care about.

                            Look I respect your opinion on gun control and new laws.  That's your prerogative. However you are being intellectually dishonest with your selective poll quoting.  Elizabeth Busch ran in an overwhelmingly republican district in South Carolina . Her stance on gun control had nothing to do with her loss.  It's ok to have a minority opinion, just don't blow smoke up our asses and pretend that your opinion is not a minority one

                            Again whether you believe the NRA figures or not, still you can't explain to me why the NRA leadership does;t support something that not only the membership supports but up until a few years ago they also supported.

                            As long as the NRA puts out fundraising letters with bold face lies about proposed bills their membership is going to go along with their decisions and grow in numbers.

                            Right man, right job and right time

                            by Ianb007 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:28:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And nearly a quarter was happy to see that (0+ / 0-)

                            the background check voted on was defeated.

                            "intellectually dishonest"
                            Are you shitting me?
                            You argued that nearly a quarter of Dems being 'happy or relieved' that the background check was defeated was 'silly' Implying that it was, somehow, a good thing for Dems.

                            "Elizabeth Busch ran in an overwhelmingly republican district in South Carolina"
                            And she was up by nine fucking points two weeks before the election.....until Sanford (whom was abandoned by the Republican party) made it a 'national election'.
                            Gun Control was dominating the national debate at the time......if your '90% support background checks' poll was relevant, that would have worked in her favor, and she wouldn't have managed to lose eighteen fucking points in two goddamn weeks.
                            Some 'electoral winner' you have there.
                            And that isn't even mentioning that Colorado is facing not one, but two recalls.....the first ones in history. How can you remain so willfully blind? What political upside has happened?
                            Reality is happening. It may be time you pay attention.

                            I have voted a strait D ticket every year except in 2000 when I voted for Nader. I am abstaining my vote this election cycle.
                            Unless you are planning on voting twice, or convincing a GOPer to not vote because of gun control, then you are shit out of luck.
                            I know that I am not the only one.

                            "As long as the NRA puts out fundraising letters with bold face lies..."
                            They don't have to lie. The President proposed a gun ban & it was proposed to the Senate by a Senator that said "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it."

                            Gun Controllers have done fucked up. This will have political ramifications for years.....all for an object that murders less than half the amount of people thatbare hands do.

                            You can push for more and better Democrats or you can push for the AWB. You're not getting both.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:42:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your point was silly because it had nothing to (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener

                            do with the question I asked you and secondly there are many things that poll with less than 90 percent democratic support.  I in no way suggested that is good for Dems.  that's just absurd.  Nice try.

                            As a matter of fact I'm sure the voting rights act would have polled worse than that for Dems than that watered down bill that we don't even know if the Dems that were relieved in that poll actually wanted the bill dead to get an even better more restrictive bill. As in the ACA polls.

                            The point we were discussing was the NRA not the Dems.  

                            The only reason that Busch was up by nine points was because Mr appalachian trails was making a total ass of himself not because that district was suddenly democratic leaning, stop being obtuse. For fucks sake the last winner of that seat won 62-36 in 2012 just six months before the Busch race.  That is just classic intellectual dishonesty

                            The President proposed a ban on assault weapons but that never made it to the final bill because there is no support for it in the senate nor the house.  The NRA lie by claiming that the bill would take your guns away.  It is a blatant bold face lie.  They are liars.

                            You keep bringing up all these stats that have nothing to do with

                            background  checks.
                             The reason you do it is that you have no reasonable argument against universal background checks and you are doing the same bs the NRA does by clouding the argument with strawman arguments and false claims that Obama is going to to take away your guns.

                            Right man, right job and right time

                            by Ianb007 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:59:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "The only reason...." (0+ / 0-)

                            The reason why Sanford was down by nine points a mere 2 weeks before the election was because he used state funds to commit adultery, was outspent 4-1, was arrested during the campaign, and was abandoned by his own party.
                            In contrast, in 2008 the Democratic candidate lost in a squeaker 52-48., because the GOP candidate received a fine.
                            52-48 in 2008, because of a fine.
                            A fine.....not adultery, not arrested, not outspent 4-1, not stealing state funds, not abandoned by his own party, not down by 9 points 2 weeks before the election.....A fine.
                            He won because he made the election national....and your 'big winner' was unable to keep Colbert-Busch from losing eighteen points in two weeks to the weakest candidate imaginable.

                            "Clouding the argument with strawmen arguments and false claims that Obama is going to take your guns away"
                            1) I never made that claim.
                            2) it's not a 'strawman'. It was the President's proposal.
                            Nothing in that sentence is correct. 'Strawmen and false claims', indeed.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 05:39:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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