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View Diary: Golf, Culture, & Cognitive Dissonance (48 comments)

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  •  This was your statement: (0+ / 0-)
    The difference, at least in my opinion, is that the people fighting those wars have chosen to do so
    I'm not glorifying war and I commend you for protesting.  But our nation is turning its back on its military and people are letting themselves get cowed because they don't volunteer.  You cannot escape the consequences of war and foreign policy by simply not serving.  The consequences of surrendering involvement are just as deep and sinister as war, if not deeper.

    BTW - its not the draft that ended the Vietnam War, it was the protests - protests which included not only draftees but returning military personnel.    And the people fighting in Iraq & Afghanistan signed up to protect the US, not be Rumsfeld's foreign-policy-war-effort-lab-rats.

    To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

    by ban48 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 12:35:09 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I know what I stated- (0+ / 0-)

      and how you read that as in any way disparaging volunteers is a mystery to me. In fact, one of the unfortunate results of the draft was that the military became historically unpopular, and much of that unpopularity was unjustly directed at the soldiers who fought in that war. Your idea of what would happen or might happen re support for the military is very different from what in fact did happen, and I watched it happen.

      Wars are best fought by people who fight them willingly. And in my opinion, the best thing that could have happened in Vietnam- a war I assume you agree should not have been fought- was even more universal resistance to the war in general and to the draft in particular.

      No one would love to believe that the protests "ended the war" more than I would. And they did have some impact on policy- which sadly resulted in the soldiers already there not receiving adequate support- but if I'm honest I have to admit that after years of protest, the war did not end until we lost it militarily with the fall of Saigon.

      •  I'm not saying you are disparaging the volunteers, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wednesday Bizzare

        I'm saying you are detached from the volunteers - as in "they volunteered for it so it is their problem now".  I'm not sure if that is what you meant, but it is how I interpreted it.

        But, I will state that your statement:

        Wars are best fought by people who fight them willingly
        is incredibly naive.  There is no shortage of very bad people who will willingly fight wars.  That is a very dangerous power to hand to very bad people.  I think wars are best fought by people who don't want to fight them.  That is the only thing that keeps them from getting out of control.  And if you hand military power to bad people, it will become your problem in a very bad way later on.

        To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

        by ban48 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 05:07:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is not what I'm saying at all. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nolagrl

          Last try: I believe it's wrong to force people to take up arms against their will. You can try to spin that into whatever you imagine, but it does not mean more than it says- and it says nothing about those who volunteer.
          Speaking of volunteers, there are also many good people who willingly fight wars, so I'm not sure what you're actually suggesting here about very bad people. But thanks for calling me naive, I guess that's better than Rumsfeld.

          It's pretty ridiculous to continue this discussion or argument or whatever you'd call it, as we will never agree. My bottom line is that I would vehemently oppose any effort to compel my kids (or now my grandkids, one of whom is only four years away from draft age) to fight in the latest version of Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. I think it's immoral to conscript people to fight in a war they oppose- but mostly I saw too many guys come home damaged or dead from a pointless dumbass war, and I don't intend to see that happen to my grandkids.

          You feel differently- I don't personally understand how anyone who doesn't believe in a given war could be okay with their kids fighting it, but as I said that's your right.

          Peace- to you and your kids.

          •  I'll back-pedal a bit: Letting people who want to (0+ / 0-)

            fight do the fighting isn't the same as letting people who want to fight wars control when we go to war.  But I do see it as a slippery slope.  And, others have pointed out that there is no shortage of ruthless tin-pot dictators with conscript armies, so conscription (or at-least conscription alone) doesn't guarantee jack-shit.

            But I think we have a dangerous detachment between civilian and military cultures.  We as a nation don't need people who oppose war to be detached, we need them engaged - engaged with the authority that comes with "I'm part of this too!  This is my fucking army too and I WILL have my say!"

            To any wingnut: If you pay my taxes I'll give you a job.

            by ban48 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 05:19:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not detached- (0+ / 0-)

              protesting a war is not an expression of detachment, it's a way to "have your say" about how our armed forces are used (or too often, misused). Doing nothing is detachment.

              If you're saying that the only way to not be detached is to actually join the army (at this point I'm assuming you're military or ex-military), I just don't agree. It's certainly one way and certainly the most direct involvement, but not everyone will make a good soldier, just as not everyone will make a good doctor or mechanic or you name it.

              True confession time- I would absolutely suck at military life. I'm not good with authority and have always run my own business. I'm pretty much a pacifist by temperament even though I know that absolute pacifism as policy won't work.
              And most of all, I absolutely lack the physical aggressiveness and raw courage that combat demands. I grew up watching the war movies of the 50's, and all I could think was I am so glad I'm a girl and will never have to do this, cause I would just be looking for a place to hide. Can't imagine shooting and maybe killing some stranger, and I sure as hell don't want them to shoot me. Of course there would likely be no gender immunity for my granddaughters if the draft is reinstated- which is another reason I hate the idea. YMMV.

    •  Study WWI (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greengemini

      and the women who ran around handing out white feathers to men who were in civilian clothes.

      The intent was to shame total strangers into volunteering to be slaughtered.

      History did not start with us.

      Joy shared is doubled. Pain shared is halved. Spider Robinson

      by nolagrl on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 07:59:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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