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View Diary: What If Zimmerman Is Acquitted? (208 comments)

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  •  If an adult black male (17+ / 0-)

    had shot and killed a seventeen year old white kid in Fla. he'd already be on death row no matter the evidence.

    I hope to God he doesn't walk...assault with a deadly weapon... negligent homicide...something...anything.

    "Fascism is attracting the dregs of humanity- people with a slovenly biography - sadists, mental freaks, traitors." - ILYA EHRENBURG

    by durrati on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 07:45:40 AM PDT

    •  nonsense. (6+ / 0-)

      If the case against your alternate universe person were as weak as this one, he'd walk, too.

      •  Yeah.... (16+ / 0-)

        I'd love to see an armed grown Black man try to assert self defense after angrily chasing down an unarmed white kid with skittles and shooting him at point blank range.

        What America do you live in?

        Money doesn't talk it swears.

        by Coss on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 08:43:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Weak? Z goes hunting and kills a kid. THAT (7+ / 0-)

        is the case to most human beings

        •  Not if you've watched the trial. (7+ / 0-)

          The only thing that matters is (1) Florida law, and (2) the evidence in that courtroom.

          The central question is whether Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his head against the sidewalk when Zimmerman shot him. If that happened, "most human beings" would consider that self-defense, and if that happened, Florida law considers it self-defense.  That's why the trial is about what happened between the two in the moments before the shot.  See my other comments, where I provide links to the applicable law.  

          •  And why couldn't it have been that Martin was (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tobendaro, vmm918, durrati

            "standing is ground" and trying to keep Zimmerman from shooting him?  There is absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman's head was being "slammed" onto concrete.  

            Zimmerman's whole defense is one of the most cowardly, shameful and offensive one I've ever witnessed.  Capping it off, he has co-opted Trayvon's screams before he died for his own.

            Utterly shameful.

            If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

            by livjack on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:23:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  livjack - It could have been Martin (4+ / 0-)

              The jury has to apply the evidence presented and apply it to the current Florida law. I don't think I have heard the prosecution state their view of the case, consistent with the evidence yet. I imagine they will try to paint a picture in their closing argument. To date it seems that they have focused on punching holes in Zimmerman's statements, a strategy that is difficult to fashion into a guilty verdict. It's the prosecution that has the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 12:06:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  You forgot the other thing that REALLY matters: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            amsterdam, a2nite

            a dead unarmed teenager.

            Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

            by emsprater on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 02:03:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, that matters. and the question is, (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pi Li, auapplemac, freegeorge, VClib

              before he was shot, was Martin doing something (beating Zimmerman's head against concrete is what the defense alleges) that led Zimmerman to the reasonable belief that he needed to use deadly force to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm?  If so, then -- tragic as the death of any person, especially a young person, is -- Zimmerman was justified under basic laws of self-defense in using deadly force.  If Martin was not doing that, Zimmerman is guilty of either murder 2 or manslaughter, depending on what the jury concludes  about his state of mind.  

              Every death is a tragedy.  Not every death is a crime.  The trial is not about whether there was a death, or a tragedy -- there clearly was.  The trial is about whether there was a crime.  And to reach that conclusion, under our justice system, the prosecution must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that, when he was shot, Martin was not doing anything that put Zimmerman in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.  If the jury determines that the prosecution has proved that beyond a reasonable doubt, then this death and tragedy is also a crime.  If the jury is not convinced of that beyond a reasonable doubt, it remains a death and a tragedy, but not a crime under our justice system.  

              •  What bothers folks it the glib use of legalese ... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                amsterdam, a2nite, durrati

                to gloss over the fact that an unarmed teenager who was minding his own business in his father's girlfriend's neighborhood was followed and an interaction caused him to be shot by the armed , trained to carry, MMA trained, trained in police style statements yet oh so 'soft' armed neighborhood watch volunteer who had already said on tape  'these ----- always get away' while not once, not one time, speaking in any positive terms of the victim, or the rights of the victim.

                No that 'doesn't matter' to folks only interested in the ways to contort the legal system for a desire outcome, but it does bother people who actually want justice for a dead kid.

                Nothing changes without public pressure: public pressure doesn't happen without dissemination of knowledge and 'true' facts. Bit me FOX.

                by emsprater on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 02:34:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Justice in this country is based on our legal (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  VClib

                  system. It is the prosecution's job to prove within a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty.

                  Remember, in this country you are innocent until proven guilty.

                  It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

                  by auapplemac on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 02:56:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  What I am interested in here, as in any criminal (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pi Li, Be Skeptical, VClib

                  trial, is for the legal system to operate in accordance with the Constitution and our laws.  If that happens, then regardless of the outcome, both the defendant and the victim will have justice.  

                  If the legal system does not operate in accordance with our Constitution and laws, regardless of the outcome, neither the defendant nor the victim will have justice.  

                  That's what I mean by justice.  What, in your mind, is justice for the victim, if it is something other than our legal system operating in accordance with our Constitution and laws?  

      •  In Central Florida, Johnny? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pico, Tonedevil, vmm918

        Yeah, I'm not quite as confident as you.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 09:30:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yeesh, I largely agree with you on the merits of (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, VClib, emsprater, a2nite

        case, but would that any level of our justice system were as color blind as this.  Everything from the initial police response to the jury selection would have gone differently for a black defendant.  

        I don't think one has to be a bleeding-heart to suspect this, given the enormous and known disparities in everything from police behavior around black suspects to application of sentencing guidelines for black convicts.  These are well-documented issues, and there's a good reason - not just naivete or ignorance - that people are up in arms about the way this trial has proceeded.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:33:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I have tried to avoid saying this throughout (0+ / 0-)

        your thousands of empty-headed comments, but this one takes the cake. Are you crazy? You seriously need to study both history and present day statistics regarding crime.

        nonsense.
        If the case against your alternate universe person were as weak as this one, he'd walk, too.
        You have GOT to be kidding. Really.

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 07:57:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  GZ is not white. He is brown. Usually we like to (0+ / 0-)

      take up the cause of brown people. So now  it appears we're setting different levels of concern based on race?

      It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

      by auapplemac on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 02:46:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What if the 17 yr old kid was Hispanic (0+ / 0-)

      like George is?

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