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View Diary: Growing up in the time of liars (42 comments)

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  •  You also said: (0+ / 0-)
    This has been going on for a long time, but it's been getting worse all the time.
    However, if one can only talk about living memory (since that is apparently the entire history of the world that some people are interested in), in my living memory, African Americans could not attend school with me, drink from the same water fountain, eat at the same restaurants, sit on the same floor at the movies, stay in the same hotel, work in the same business,  go to the library the same day and a host of other things.

    In my living memory, and even in the living memory of me when I was having sex, women could not get an abortion except in a couple of states or get birth control pills without being married.

    In my living memory, women could be turned down for jobs just because they were women and could be paid less for exactly the same entry level job. And if you were a married woman or a woman with a dependent child, you could not be in the military.

    In my living memory, there was no Medicare, Medicaid or food stamps.

    In my living memory, Native American children were still being sent to boarding schools.

    In my living memory, if you were gay, you could not join the military and if you did and were found out, you got a BCD. And you sure could not get married anywhere in the US.

    In my living memory, the Cuyahoga River caught on fire and smog and inversion alerts were common.

    In my living memory women could not get a VISA or Mastercard without a husband to co-sign.

    In my living memory, there may not have been indentured servants but there were sharecroppers and miners living in company towns who were essentially indentured servants.

    In my parents' living memory, there was no safety net whatsoever and no child labor laws. In the living memory of someone 100 years old (and that is quite a number of people), women could not vote.

    However if you only want to talk about lies, corruption, and difficulty protesting - in my living memory Richard Nixon was president; he wins the Oscar for lies and corruption. People were beaten and killed for protesting for civil rights and against the war in Vietnam so resistance has always had costs, but if you think the OWS protestors had a hard time, look at some old footage of civil rights protests or read about the Freedom Fighters.

    You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

    by sewaneepat on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:38:26 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  And look at the second part of my comment above. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dewley notid, raboof

      I am talking about corruption, the prevalence of lies, and the difficulty of resistance.

      Richard Nixon only wished he had the kind of government we have today--and the lack of Constitutional protection.

      Today, Richard Nixon's conduct would not even be debated in Congress--not unless somebody in Congress had a personal political agenda to take him out. Probably most of his conduct would be considered legal, and a lot of people on here would shrug, and say, hey, this is nothing. Remember how we had it under Hoover? Remember how we had it in the South under the plantation owners in the 1850's?  This isn't so bad.

      The difficulty of resistance right now is not in OWS having "a hard time"--and thanks, btw, for being dismissive about that--I'm talking about the difficulty of generating resistance. The lies get in the way of the resistance. There's less blood b/c there's more lies. When there is blood, fewer people know about it, because there's more lies. But, of course, there are far worse legally permissible punishments--such as being thrown in jail permanently, or put on a kill list, or tortured, all of which is now apparently legal.

      We could have had a productive discussion about how these things have changed, but I'm not going to get into some kind of sick competition over who's been hurt more.

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:14:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You apparently know little about Nixon. (0+ / 0-)

        I am not dismissive of OWS but compared to what happened to protestors in the '50's, 60's and '70s, it is not close. The question was not whether it is easy now, but whether it is harder. I could make the case that it is easier to generate resistance now because of the internet and social media, but since you want to believe this is the worst of times, there is apparently no chance of an open mind.

        For white males, the '50s and '60s were the apex of privilege. For everyone else, not so much. Whether you believe it or not.

        You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

        by sewaneepat on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:53:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your comments are confusing truly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SouthernLiberalinMD

          First - Women and blacks getting the vote is relatively recent, but they have had the right for a few generations now.

          Second - there has been racial discrimination and it has been well documented regarding farms and land and government bennies regarding same.

          Third - this doesn't include the trials and tribulations of indigenous Americans who never had a break and who have been lied to and stolen from since the first settler came.

          BUT we had done some things that we thought were progress. Like the safety nets, like the sexual revolution, like the VRA, like ending the war in Vietnam, like ending the cold war, like Glass Steagal ending the banks never ending crises, like even the walk on the moon were all considered forward.

          AND then we had Nixon who was a crook and Ford who pardoned Nixon. But then we had Raygun and Iran/Contra and Rummy and Cheney and North but not to worry because Pappy Bush pardoned them all. And we had Clinton for 8 years in between. And Clinton tacked right with welfare reform and NAFTA and repealing Glass Steagal, but we all believed he was so much much better than the Repubs because we seemed to be so much more prosperous. But then we had Bush the younger and 9/11 and two wars and a complete financial meltdown. Really Bush did such a number on the whole economy (and almost unnoticed where the pallets of billions of dollars that were just washed into Iraq and stuffed away by some unknowns) and did it so very thoroughly AND he revitalized the whole MIC with the help of the PNAC bunch AND he started the TIA and the whole data collection thingy. And really tore the hell out of what we think of as being American with his response to Katrina and his torture schemes and Gitmo. And now we have Obama.   And you have to hand it to Obama for sheer guts to run in a country that isn't that far from lynching people and assassinating leaders that some people find problematic. But still Obama with his "look forward not back" meme, his continual upping the ante with spying on our own citizens, his crackdown on Occupy and even spying on the Quakers for God's sake and his less than successful draw down from both Iraq and Afghanistan (not that even GOD could do much better but still). And his inability to push back on the Republican intransigence EVEN THOUGH he has had the elaborate machinery to get elected twice in this difficult era and with the rampant racism to the point where we can turn any of the evils around has been a bitter pill for me to swallow. He could have USED same mechanism to get much more done and didn't. He could have gotten Reid to DO filibuster reform and didn't. He could have made the HCA so much more progressive and didn't. (And yes he had opposition, so what, he also had the bully pulpit and the machinery to call people to his aid. )

          We now are in a precarious situation where no progressive reforms are likely to happen, where the 1 percent consolidates their power and the machinery Obama and Bush have created at NSA and "Homeland Security" have made that consolidation even more intimidating and threatening to not just whistle blowers but for ANYBODY who dares to even try to protest. AND the internets are all being watched assiduously and there are even traps set to try to trip any would be leader or leaker into long prison sentences. Even as Obama praises Nelson Mandela for having survived a long prison sentence for being a leader himself.

          Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt

          by glitterscale on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 05:25:56 PM PDT

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          •  I have said exactly when women got the vote, (0+ / 0-)

            as for African Americans, while I guess 1965, when voting rights were guaranteed, has been 2 generations, it is within my lifetime and yours. There is an assault now which needs to be responded to.

            While I did not mention the discrimination of African Americans in farm policy, I have discussed various other discrimination against AAs in at least two and probably more posts in this diary. And when was restitution made regarding farmers?

            I have discussed  "the trials and tribulations" of Native Americans in at least two posts in this diary. From lies about treaties to boarding schools.

            So I don't know why you are confused. The diary was about whether things are worse now than ever. I have pointed out where I think there has been significant progress. When and where exactly do you think there has been more progress than now?

            You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

            by sewaneepat on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 05:54:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  If that is the answer to the last question, (0+ / 0-)

                and I assume it is, then yes, there were a number of laws which expanded rights and benefits for a great number of people, particularly African Americans, seniors and the poor. We still have that progress in addition to expanding rights for the LGBT community, expansion of environmental protections and programs, tax credits for lower income people, and women's rights among others. So more people have their rights protected now than then.

                If you are only looking at the changes at a particular time, then the Civil War and immediate post civil war period expanded rights for more people and the passage of women's suffrage did also. But I don't think you would argue that overall  we made more progress than we have now since we have those benefits and others so we have more progress now than then. Perhaps I asked the question in an awkward fashion but my point is that at no time I can think of in the history of the world have we achieved a greater amount of progress toward the goal of complete social and economic justice. It remains a goal to work for but progress toward that goal is nothing to disparage.

                Would you trade the situation now for the situation in LBJ's time? I think not. No freedom of choice re abortion, the draft, no EPA, no rights for LGBT people, etc.

                If you are answering the question about AA farmers, the answer is 2010.

                You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

                by sewaneepat on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 05:48:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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